If being an unaligned country with a large army is no deterrent to Putin's ambitions is it time for ROI to join Nato?
Wait. We have Russian friends? I seem to recall they didn't consider Ireland friendly right now.
Maybe you have Russian friends and are projecting? I used to have Russian friends. I've not spoken to them in two years now.
Yes but your considered opinion flies in the face of all facts and logic.
Also I think the West will survive isolating itself from Russia pretty easily.
It would be my considered opinion that the war in Ukraine was provoked by NATO as that benighted organization strives to justify it's existence. The west has only succeeded in isolating itself and it will lose the war it is waging with our Russian friends.
Ask again later.
Disband ? They are just getting going. Once they get Sweden and a few more volunteers in, then they can invade China.
Is it time to disband NATO?
It has nothing to do do my "my" definition of anything.
We are there as a PEACE KEEPING element. That doesn't exclude us from taking to arms if a given situation requires it. But it is NOT our essential remit as part of our UN obligations as part of those PEACE KEEPING efforts.
You seem to be really struggling with this concept and bogging yourself down in the very semantics that you wished to avoid.
All that's happening here is that you wish to have the last word. So you you can have the last word.
I'm done here.
It has nothing to do with "my" definition at all.
We are not there in a "fighting capacity" as in acting as a belligerent in a conflict.
It has nothing to do with my definition but we are not there in a fighting capacity based on my definition of it 🙄
I'm not missing the point. I think people underrate the danger of UN peacekeeping missions (I recall a movement to remove us from UNIFIL after the 4 deaths in 2000) and claiming peacekeepers are not deployed in a fighting capacity continues that approach. If you turn up to train someone who to demine IEDs in a base you are there in a non-fighting capacity. If you turn up with an armoured brigade behind you you are not. I dislike you using the terminology that peacekeepers are not there in a fighting capacity because the entire point of peacekeepers is that they are there with the weight of the UN and sometimes that involves fighting. Otherwise they are completely pointless. This entire argument is because I didn't agree with your use of the quite vague term fighting capacity, and you've spent the entire time explaining to me the non-belligerent/non-combatant status of peacekeepers. Peacekeeping is a dangerous activity, it is noteworthy and praiseworthy that we engage in it. But the Irish government currently sends our troops into dangerous situations they deem worthy and while constitutionally they are the sole arbiters of this, we have allowed ourselves to become beholden to a policy where actually Putin and Xi Jinping decide it instead.
No.
the Irish Defence Forces are not there to fight for a particular side. We are not there in a "fighting capacity" as in acting as a belligerent in a conflict. We are there in a PEACE KEEPING role ONLY. Our UN requirements are quite defined in as much as we are generally a policing force.
That doesn't mean that we are immune to skirmishes or taking to arms as the situation dictates.
You are hung up on the semantics of "fighting capacity" and completely missing the the whole point.
What kind of credible defence could we put up
Before you plan a defense you need to have an approximation of what you'd defend against
Otherwise it's pointless
Why would the stupid Russians start a proxy war with NATO
Hmmm...its a fuzzy and messy area. There is no consensus in NATO beyond "support Ukraine" and how that support is delivered is haphazard. It is the exact opposite of how e.g. the EU approaches things (which is to be expected given the governance).
My point is that not that NATO as an entity has not helped, it is that NATO membership has not enforced any course of action on any of their members. It is a coordination forum, including many non-members.
None of the material heading to Ukraine are "NATO assets" in the sense of material that was actively in the rapid reaction forces of NATO.
Its the perfect cakeism world really - its mostly affairs one can choose to participate in or not unless one of the NATO members is actually attacked in which case we'll get dragged in to some degree anyway.
This. Ireland joining NATO right now would just mean relying on others for defense (like now), but other members wouldn't get much help from Ireland. So what would be the point of Ireland joining NATO?
But being neutral requires a credible defense. Otherwise you're not really neutral, you're the little guy in the school yard hoping the bullies leave you alone.
NATO has been the ready made coordinating body for the Ukraine Defence Contact Group (aka The Ramstein Group for the name of the military base at which it meets). NATO stood this Group up within weeks and invited others, which totals 23 non members, including Ireland.
NATO planning and logistics elements have coordinated the availability of armaments and ammunition that can be sent from Alliance members, without weakening the Alliance as a whole.
NATO have secured the external borders of Ukraine and the wider Baltic and Black Sea regions, to prevent Russia from opening other fronts and moving naval assets undetected.
NATO tactical assets have assisted Ukraine directly in assembling their national defence and in putting together their counteroffensive.
To suggest that NATO, as a body corporate, has done nothing for Ukraine, directly and indirectly, is just false and misinformed.
You used the term mission yourself earlier though? I think you underplay what it can involve a bit there with the glorified police units. Sometimes the mandates have required a lot of force, soldiers, APCs, tanks etc. They (UN) also use "peace enforcement" as a term.
Anyways, I thought the UN was a biased tool of Western hegemony made defunct by the soon to be birthed Multipolar World (per the geopolitcs lectures you give on Russia/Ukraine threads, how UN votes, or reports etc. are meaningless and unrepresentative of "global" view of Ukraine war) yet now you get a bit misty eyed about Ireland taking part in UN "peace keeping missions"? Is there not a bit of insincerity there (edit: regarding the UN)?
None of this has been done under the auspices of NATO. Which would be entirely clear to anyone who has seen the haphazard nature of it.
This is akin to the Brexit referendum where people were fundamentally unable to differentiate EU competencies from member state competencies.
You are right NATO hasn't done a thing for Ukraine. There has definitely been no training of Ukrainian Armed Forces and all of that equipment supplied must be just Russian propaganda.
Yes, I agree that is your definition of the phrase and by that definition it is correct.
I don't think it is a good or accurate definition and I don't agree with it. Which was my point from the get go. For the record I said it was a semantics issue and you said it wasn't and that I was just incorrect based on your own definition.
So you agreed with what I said on the last page when I qualified "fighting capacity" as "...we're not there to there to seek aggressive action on behalf of a particular side".
You did want to get into semantics, but mired the discussion down in semantics anyway.
This is like trying to have a discussion with ChatGPT.
They've definitely forgotten more alright, whoever these mythical "many experts" are.
It's considered a very clear example of a NATO proxy war, by many experts who have likely forgotten more about geopolitics and international affairs than most of the armchair experts that populate forums such as this one know about the topic.
I'll go with their informed opinion and experience on this conflict, rather than the armchair generals...
I never argued otherwise. I do not agree that this means they are there in a non fighting capacity. One doesn't tend to bring armoured brigades to a non-fighting operation.
They are merely non-combatants in the existing conflict. It is not the same thing.
However, "fighting capacity" is not a standardised term so basically the only problem is that we don't agree on what it means. I think your definition gives the wrong impression of what the operations involve.
So, you agree that the Irish Defence Forces are involved in UN peace keeping operations in a mainly non-aggressive role?
why dont they just ring fence the tv license money for NATO if they are so mad for us to join?
I dont think there is any benefit to us joining another bloated beaurcratic organisation with questionable goals. other than for the sake of appearances that is.
No it isn't.
"NATO" have not done a thing for the Ukraine conflict, individual countries have. Ironically, the EU is trying to collectively help Ukraine. None of these involve a single combat soldier.
It's involved in a pretty big one at the moment (I know it's not official ) but still we all know it's involved in it.
I don't like the idea of joining NATO as that means sticking our noses into other countries business continually.
Such as? NATO simply does not conduct as many operations as people seem to think.
I never said that either. In fact I said the exact opposite.
I have been exceptionally clear on my points. I'm happy to leave it there if you still don't get the distinction.
We should defintely improve our armed forces.It's embarrassing how poorly equipped we are in that regard.We need to be able to defend ourselves to some degree and not have to go cap in hand to the UK to do all our defense, it's embarrassing for sovereign nation to be so poorly equipped militarily.
Better off to be like Switzerland and have a strong armed forces based on all men doing a period off national service where they do basic training when they turn 18 and having a strong active and reserve army.This should have been the way for the state since it's inception.
Let me get this straight. You don't agree that the Irish Defence Forces are involved in UN peace keeping operations in a mainly non-aggressive role?
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