If being an unaligned country with a large army is no deterrent to Putin's ambitions is it time for ROI to join Nato?
are we going to develop Nuclear? If not we will be contracting out our defense to the UK and the US
If you haven’t noticed Ireland is still split from the last invasion.
Sure we be grand, no one would invade us lads.
Stupid question. The low quality of your posts doesn't merit further engagement.
but it made your post look stupid
Have any nuclear weapons been used yet in the war in Ukraine?
If there's anything this war has taught us so far it's that modern warfare can exist without the use of nuclear weapons.
There's a private army with Tanks in the north massing an attack? The UDA have traded up
Thanks for making my point again. Bye now.
Not a citizen so I wouldn't get a vote but I'd be in favour of a referendum on such an important issue.
What is the point in joining NATO. If anybody invaded us do you think the U.S would just sit by and let that happen, not a hope.
I dont think that is correct, there have been small wars every year forever, what stopped them becoming bigger ones is nuclear, no one wants to play that game, because ye know, they'd die
So we will still be relying on others for our protection, just like europe does with the US and so does japan and a **** load of other countries
is this ok? At what point is it ok?
So if we are to play the defense game, who are we defending against? Pirates?
Yes. Democracy. Not 'what Tom Tom wants'
There is no constitutional requirement to hold a referendum for this issue. Our stance on neutrality (dubious at times with US aircraft landing here) is one of historical convention ranging back to Dev's opinions and not based on any legal or constitutional requirement.
I say we elect a government to govern, let them govern. If there is a referendum I'm voting yes every time. If you're not on the NATO defence side then you're an enemy of the good side. As we saw with Ukraine, who's not a member, they did not get defended by nato.
Definitely no, to a vote, that is. Regardless of the benefits and downsides of a hypothetical participation in NATO, both of which are overplayed to a hilarious extent in the current debate, it is simply foolhardy to tie a government down based on the momentary whim of a notoriously fickle electorate at one particular point in time. A government needs to be able to maneuver freely to best serve and represent the interests of its people and forcing the government's hand in his matter based on the emotional landscape of Ireland in summer 2023 might well leave the country effectively paralyzed down the line.
Personally speaking, despite originally hailing from a NATO country, I'm actually opposed to joining NATO at this point. Why? Because neutrality, for any given definition of the word, is nothing unless you can enforce it, or at least be seen a capable of enforcing it. Basically, Ireland needs to be able to stand on its own feet first. For decades, this country has relied on the generosity of its neighbors for everything but the bare essentials, partially out of necessity, but more recently primarily out of self-indulgent complacency. "Ah shure, who would want to harm us? Everyone likes the Irish" seems to be the general consensus. I believe this to be a dangerous mind set. We're currently living through the most turbulent geopolitical time since the end of World War 2, possibly even since the early 1920s. New power blocks are forming, whilst old power structures that only a year or two seemed rock solid are beginning to crumble. Sooner or later, these changes will reach Ireland as well, and the government of the time will need to be agile enough to react to this, something that would not be possible if the country were to commit to, or be blocked from, joining an alliance at this point.
I mentioned earlier that Ireland needs to learn to stand on its own two feet. This also means that it will need to be able to safely police its own territorial waters, EEZ and air space, all of which Ireland currently has outsourced to various NATO members due to the aforementioned complacency. Building up the resources to do this on its own should take absolute precedence over any alliance discussions. Right now, the Defence Forces are like a police force without patrol cars: Great to have for checking in with the community, but unable to respond to urgent situations. There are those to say that any potential incursion into Irish territorial waters or airspace would also present a potential threat to our nearest neighbor, the United Kingdom, and would cause them to respond. Whilst this might seem like a solid argument on the face of it, it ignores the fact that for decades, the British military has been systematically starved of a lot of the funds it needs to operate, a trend that continues even to this day, with ongoing reductions in headcount, available warships or aircraft. Unless there's a major about-face in London soon, we might find ourselves in a situation, where we can't rely on cover from the Uk because the simply do not have the resources anymore. Given this prospect, it is only prudent to build up our own capabilities, something I believe that Ireland is both economically and technologically capable of.
It means we don't get involved in armed conflict.
It's one of the greatest commitments any nation can make towards promoting peace. And of course, Ireland has a very proud history of not only neutrality but also peace keeping missions around the world. Which is why we should think very carefully before throwing away something as valuable and noble as our neutrality.
A lot of nations and people talk about wanting peace, but then their actions say something entirely different - they choose violence to solve their problems. War has always been used as a means to control nation states and their citizens. This is why governments never give citizens the right to vote on whether they engage in wars.
Our neutrality, in effect, gives our people the right to say no to armed conflict. We're known all around the world, as a nation of peaceful friendly and welcoming people. We're not warmongers!
And of course, our neutrality does not prevent our citizens from joining other nation's military's and fighting in whatever war they wish. You don't have to wait for Ireland to join NATO if you're that way inclined, just jump on a plane and grab a gun... you'll find plenty of people who will be happy to turn you into cannon fodder!
are the Ukraine the baddies then 🤣
It's called sponging. Are Irish citizens not embarrassed when, for example, we need to airlift our own citizens out of a war zone and our diplomats have to get on the phone every time to the British or the French so we can thumb lifts?
We are the only country in Europe that has to do that, the only one, because we couldn't be arsed providing the most basic capability that small island nations provide to their own citizens.
That's just one example.
This country needs a kick up the hole and substantial bills given to it every time we need assistance. Our approach is mind boggling.
There is nothing smart, brave, morally pure about how this country does things. We do it to save money and then our partners see how rich we tell them we are. It's leeching off the neighbours.
Trying to drag it to reducto ad absurdum eh:?
NATO exists because none of the countries outside the US could stand on their own two feet against the USSR. It was a game of brinksmanship and it worked
Theres no current threat or long term chance of one and there is no point in doing anything unless ones come on the horizon.
I do think the people should decide
Leo and Micheal seem to be contradicting each other
its absurd already with all the clueless posting
Without question.I would vote no.
anyone who votes yes can be automatically enrolled for national service no age barrier in this army..
the one with the rifle shoots, the one without follows him...
any follow up?
We should absolutely be given the right to vote on such an issue. I'm not sure what idiot would advocate this though. NATO is nothing more than an extension of the US Military Industrial Complex and US State Department agenda and policy. It is an extremist organization that is ran by blood-hungry elitist gombeens who never have to suffer the consequences of their actions; they are sabre-rattlers hell bent on destroying nations across the globe in the interests of US elites. They could care less about liberating the Middle-East, Africa or even Russia; all they care about is how much money they can make for themselves and their buddies. So NO, Ireland should not join NATO. We should be actively campaigning to dismantle such horrid institutions which violate human rights and international laws on a regular basis without repercussion.
Funny how you were supportive of the Russians on the Ukraine thread until things went south... "valuable and noble" neutrality my arse. Shameful, turn a blind eye attitude more like. Easy to know where the likes of Daly and Wallace get their votes.
You're totally right on this one.
As an addendum I attacked you unjustly sime months back making out you were a Russian shill. I apologise unreservedly for that. I was thinking of Run Forest Run.
If NATO hadn't helped Ukraine, this war would be over a long time ago. So you are being disingenuous with your framing of the definition of NATO defence. But then, NATO's "help" hasn't really done much good in the long run either - other than prolonging the pain for the people of that country.
Oh, and then there is the big elephant in the room regarding historical NATO meddling in that region in the first place. That's a whole topic of discussion all on it's own...
It really amazes me, that people can actually promote the idea of NATO membership off the back of the giant mess we are witnessing in Eastern Europe - and do it with a straight face! It's frankly quite astounding actually.
Excellent post!
ah it has in fairness, its made the russians look like clowns
Russians are idiots, look at the mess of the last few days
Care to support this with a relevant quote? I think you'll find I'm against the war. But don't let facts get in the way of the agenda you're pushing...
