If being an unaligned country with a large army is no deterrent to Putin's ambitions is it time for ROI to join Nato?
Yes to having a say and a firm NO to joining
Surprised by the amount of no voters there would be here. I think we should be in NATO so would vote Yes. It is called the "North Atlantic Treaty Organisation" after all and we are the weakest link in the North Atlantic.
We elect governments to govern. That means sometimes actually governing and making tough decisions in the national interest.
I don't think any government should be outsourcing something as fundamental as defence to the public.
The Irish public have not proven themselves astute on this at all. The so-called "triple lock" is the prime example of emotive stupidity at it's finest. That was introduced to nudge the public in to accepting the Nice treaty.
In doing so and voting for the Nice treaty they gave a veto over the deployment of our own defence forces to China, to Russia and other security council members.
It wouldn't fill you with confidence as to the publics grasp of these types of issues.
Maybe Russia doing as it wants with our subsea cables might be the wake up call people need.
There is a distinction between joining NATO and looking after our own back yard.
I'm much more interested in the latter than joining NATO.
We are Europe's weakest link. I don't see the upside of that.
It should be put to the people I'd be curious to see which way it would go before Ukraine it would've been a resounding no imo but now I'm not so sure. No for me anyway
Yes from me also and I would also vote no.
although I do think we should have a marked increase in budget for our defence forces, navy, coastguard and such seeing as we are an island.
Yep. Typically Ireland does a good job in referendums, outlining what each side would result in. Would be good to define with each result means and then get the people to decide.
Absolutely although it'll be a No from me.
definitely yes, it's such a big thing that it would have to be decided by the people.
i would absolutely vote no.
I think we should be and know which way I would vote.
How would you both?
No question the authoritarian dictatorship in Russia is a direct threat to us and is hurting us directly as I type. We are having to pay out billions to house the 80,000 odd Ukrainian refugees in our country and as well as a result losing tourists beds so that is a very real and very direct harm inflicted on us by the Russian dictatorship that is happening right now. Then additionally the direct threats you clearly elucidate above. It is high time we stopped being spongers when it comes to our own defense and security.
To be honest, I doubt the Americans have any real intent of supplying Abrams tanks to Ukraine. The Americans are happy that European nations have depleted their arsenals by supplying stuff to Ukraine. I'm sure they are hopeful that countries will now be hesitant to buy or use Leopard tanks and instead will switch over to the Abrams.
Puny people benefiting from this conflict are some of arms companies.
Still no sign of the Abrams tank in Ukraine.
Plenty of German/Dutch/Danish Leopards there though.
Collective European security is our best bet.
Nato is too influenced by American/foreign interests.
Edit: Thankfully, the mods took action and deleted the Ukrainian propaganda video that was mocking the innocent Russian man who was unfortunately eaten by a shark. Nice to see that this site hasn't yet devolved down to the level of discourse you would expect on a shithole such as Twitter. If you want to post offensive names stick to Twitter and share them with the rest of the NAFO idiots.
Have to say I think it is actually the "restoring the homeland nonsense" that is main thing that makes any sense as a reason for Russia's invasion. I think when the Great Leader (Putin) spouts about Peter the Great and Russia's glorious past + the like, there is truth coming out.
It is at core an old fashioned effort at land grab and empire building with some genocide thrown in that most people thought was finished in Europe.
Russia is not going to invade Ireland given where we are, and there is no prospect that they can ever exert enough influence here to get cronies into power and draw Ireland into clear allignment with them (!), but they can do us harm.
They have shown they have very few limits now, they are not likely to care about "neutrality" or a history of uninvolvement in alliances like NATO particularly. That is why the Finns and Swedes are joining NATO now IMO (again not saying Ireland should). IMO they feel, given their location, they need some extra insurance against Russia's appetite for aggression and the new unpredictibility they have shown.
IMO if Russia in future sees opportunity & advantage for themselves in a grey zone attack that will damage interests of the US or other EU countries located here they would do it, regardless of Irish neutrality.
It doesn't have to be straight after. Look at Ukraine, why did Russia invade Ukraine? Put aside the restoring the homeland nonsense.
The strategic advantage in invading Ukraine successfully was advancing towards NATO through a neutral country. Hence we have seen Sweden and Finland move to join NATO to avoid being next. If Ukraine had been annexed quickly, Moldova would have been next.
The question after that for Russia is whether Serbia or Ireland coming under their sphere of influence is most likely. You only need to look at the influence that Russia have built up over our left-wing politicians with the clowns Daly and Wallace being the most prominent example and Michael D's intervention last week being the silliest. Russia would love a SF-led left-wing government in Ireland sympathetic to its cause.
Before directly attacking NATO, take out all the non-members, just like Germany moved in the 1930s to annex "friendly" countries first. Those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Russia is this generation's 1930s Germany.
That makes zero sense
There is none. The only way Russia would attack Ireland is if it was a member of NATO and NATO attacked Russia, which is more likely.
Why did Strongbow come to this inconsequential island?
What was the provocation for the Sack of Baltimore?
The "Ahh sure it will be grand if we say nothing" defence has proved ineffective against foreign invaders.
Ireland could learn lessons from Iceland.
For what reasoning would Russia decide to invade Ireland, or any country decide to invade Ireland for that matter?
Need to think of a justification which doesn't involve subsequently attacking the UK or Europe straight after taking Dublin.
I fully agree that we should join NATO. At least we'll have powerful friends if Russia ever decide to attack us. People go on about the Belgrade air strikes in 1999, but there would've been no bombs dropped on Belgrade if it wasn't for ethnic cleansing by the serbs in the Kosovo reagion.
Well for a poster who spends a lot of time shilling a Pro Russian narrative in the 'Russia' thread its no surprise.
We all know that Putin and his cronies hate NATO and the EU, that is the side of history you and those protestors are on. The side that castrates young men, rapes young boys, girls and women, commits genocide, blows up dams and commits war crimes and atrocities.
Well done to you.
Well done to ignorance maybe? What NATO ‘war’ has killed ‘millions’? The last time i checked it was the US & UK that invaded Iraq. Nothing to do with NATO.
Well done to them.
As I said, children are children.
You are always onto a loser when your only tactic is to shout someone down.
In fact, that is a trait of fascism ironically enough.
Also, not one word about Russia or Ukraine from any of these 'protesters'.
Juvenile (and selective) Irish Left being juvenile again. Nothing changes….. Disrupting the security forum in Cork this morning.
Nah. It's not confirmation bias as i do look at both sides. Like when i read something in the news i check multiple sources then i check what company owns that source and what people they have and who owns it then you can get an idea of where they stand.
B) The Defence Forces investment plan is not to fight a war, but to enable the proper protection of the State and its assets and resources in a peacetime risk profile, based on the changing global security environment brought about by Russia's aggression.
Protect the state from who? IF Ireland is being attacked what does that say to you? It tells me as i already mentioned that the world must've gone to **** already and why are they attacking Ireland after i presume they must've fought off most of the western world but now little old Ireland stands alone!! And with it's new found defence spending it shall defend itself against this superior adversary. When you join NATO their enemies will become ours.
The investment includes a military architecture for cyber defence, such as the devastating attack on the HSE IT system, carried out by Russian based criminals who are not only tolerated by the Russian Government but encouraged and resourced to attack western states.
That group could be yes and that experience i knew first hand as i couldn't get my dads death cert for a long time. But western countries also play their games. They also have a way of doing cyber attacks and making them seem as they come from elsewhere. Not saying it happened in this case but it's why i always keep an open mind. Like another thing when it came to the destroyed dam in Ukraine they say that the've satelite pictures but where was that satelite footage when it came to the Nord Stream pipeline? Russia is not doing good in Ukraine and yet somehow managed to slip by various EU and NATO countries undetected with all their satelites,navies,radars,aircraft patrols and so on.
Russia is in the wrong here when it comes to the war in Ukraine but by god(and i'm not religious) love to push the Russian scare tactic. You have countries in NATO but when it came to Iraq they had to create a "Coalition Of The Willing" because they didn't get UN approval. You have countries in eastern europe like Latvia and Lithuania and Poland going on about how Russia is wrong for attacking Ukraine and they're right but they also had no problems attacking Iraq. The west and NATO is the good guy either. Russia is now shown up to be a paper tiger apart from it's nukes so now the last few years you have the western countries switch to China because they see that as an up and coming threat not just militarliy but also economically(Which is partially down to their own corporations greed)
This State is a junction for communications and data services for hundreds of countries and millions of people and that's the very simple and very clear reason why we would be under threat. If we fail to protect the billions invested here, the billions that in turn employ hundreds of thousands of people and raise massive taxes, then the investors will eventually F off somewhere else.
There's more cables that connect North America to Europe. They don't all come to Ireland and there is redundancies but Ireland increasing it's defence spending is not going to change that, If a country want to interfere with them then they will whether that's in Ireland's EEZ or further out into the atlantic. If we fail to protect the billions here? Those cables aren't ours.
Yes we depend on them but that responsibility is not Irelands alone. Invested billions here because they don't want to pay a higher rate of tax and they know they have leverage over those gombeens in government. Jobs are important but so is living and that in turn creates high rents and pressures on housing as they need to import the some of the workforce. Mate, They have no loyalty to Ireland if somewhere else pops up then they'll be gone anyway. It's another reason i always wanted more support for Irish businesses and am reluctant on some of the Green Party ideas to cripple some of our most successful industries which will only then have their place taken by other countries who support their own. Foreign investment is a good thing but we should never rely on them 100% and certainly shouldn't be pimping ourselves out.
Every bit of this is bullscutter.
You've convinced yourself of certain things because they fit your agenda. It's called confirmation bias.
But let's dismantle your nonsense.
A) the Air Corps do have some role in Search and Rescue, but the reason the Coastguard helicopter service is contracted out, is so that crew resources can be found all over the World. If the Air Corps did it all, all of the pilots would need to be Irish military officers, which is limiting and difficult to replace in a hurry. Such a chance that helicopters may be left unmanned for HR reasons, is too serious to risk by having our small Air Corps do it.
You don't know people are full of sh1t, that's just your opinion. And stood up against all your other opinions, it doesn't add up to a convincing argument.
For one section like the Aer Corps they could be used to do the helicopter coast guard duties instead of it being leased out to companies. No matter what Irelands buys it's not going to defend us and it wouldn't last in a war. Who would be attacking and why? The way this country has been run and now how brazen they're getting i would be always wary and i can see that when they say to increase spending so we can protect cables i know they're full of sh!t and that's only one reason among many others.
If we are totally outside any defence alliance, then even large defence spending increases may have minimal security benefits. We are too small to defend ourselves alone from any big boy who might be a threat. I can think of only one such big boy at the moment.
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