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"Experienced" drivers lacking knowledge or rules of the road

deravarra

First off, I would never suggest that I am the best or most perfect driver, and I have had a share of times where I made a wrong judgement call. I always hold my hand up, and would be open to correction if my driving faults were pointed out to me.

Lately, I have noticed that quite a lot of people do not know how to use a roundabout.

Prime example this morning was a four exit roundabout, coming up the Dublin Road beside the Park Hotel in Mullingar. There was a car stopped ahead of me, and the car was on the right hand side of the road. I went to the left of the car, as the rules of the road suggest.

"If you’re following the road ahead, (2nd exit), you would normally position towards the left, or stay in the left-hand lane, however you need to be guided by road signs/markings. You would have no signal on approach, however when you reach the centre point of the 1st exit, you would signal left, to let other traffic know that you are leaving at the next exit."

and

"If you’re taking the road leading to the right, (3rd exit), you would normally position just left of the centre line, or select the right-hand lane, however you need to be guided by road signs/markings. You would signal right on approach, however when you reach the centre point of the 2nd exit, you would signal left, to let other traffic know that you are leaving at the next exit."

When moving off from the roundabout, I maintained lane discipline and exited at 12 o'clock from ingress. I noted that the car which was to my right made their egress from the roundabout at the same exit.

I parked up at a local supermarket where the owner of the car which had been on the right hand side of the roundabout approached my car, and said that I had made a dangerous manouevre, overtaking them on the roundabout. I asked him what lane he was in, and what lane I was in, and he remonstrated that those in the left lane should only turn left, which was incorrect - as there is no road signage or markings to show this, nor are there road markings or signage to show that those on the right lane are allowed go straight ahead.

I was willing to discuss the rules of the road, and also allow them to point out where, if I was, wrong. Unfortunately, no such discussion was had.

If circumstances were different and this gentleman had approached another individual in the same manner they approached me, things could have been so much different. I was more pre-occupied with thoughts of whether or not we'd have rain today, and whether my planned barbequeue could go ahead.

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Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120723190#Comment_120723190

Once! Once, in 1979, they cleared a backlog with an amnesty and 44 years on it's still spouted every time a driver over the age of 60 is mentioned.

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120725204#Comment_120725204

OP said they didn't overtake. The other car was in front of the OP on approach to the roundabout. OP drove up beside the other car at the roundabout yield line. If the OP's car exited the roundabout ahead of the other car then OP overtook the other car.

OP's initial description and lack of a response to my assertion that if their car exited the roundabout first they did overtake the other car, would lead me to believe my view is correct.

chooseusername

https://goo.gl/maps/qEFLC3NiUW3zSiBh6

These cars are positioned correctly to continue straight on.

Same roundabout entering from N52, two lanes clearly marked;

https://goo.gl/maps/nbdGDgSo9g2rQd946

My reading of it; you undertook on the roundabout.

newmember2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120725135#Comment_120725135

Yes...you both took off around a roundabout that has only one lane - two abreast. You're telling us a guard told you this is the correct way to drive?

The entrances to the roundabout are wide to allow traffic going immediately left not have to queue with traffic intending to use the roundabout, but the roundabout itself has only one lane.

odyssey06

In the US I've seen signs such as Left Lane Must Turn Left.

Here we rely on road markings which can't be seen in traffic.

We've so fond of signs for overload of secondary information but not for something as important as this.

There's far too many badly designed and laid out roundabouts, coupled with dodgy driving, it's not a good combination.

newmember2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120725893#Comment_120725893

The entrances to the roundabout are wide to allow traffic going immediately left not have to queue with traffic intending to use the roundabout, but the roundabout itself has only one lane.

Or actually that's even incorrect looking at the photos again. The other motorist wrongly (although possibly thought he was being courteous) moved to the right as he approached the roundabout to allow traffic going immediately left past him on the inside. - (like what he told you).

Why are people saying there were no lanes...what were the cars moving in so, space?

[Deleted User]

OP acted correctly in his driving, anyone who doesn’t see this needs to go back to driving school. No wonder incidents take place with the level of ignorance out there. Having said that way back in the day when I had driving lessons the instructors very rarely took me on a route that involved a roundabout, and there was no theory test, so people of my generation (60s) can be persistently ignorant of rules of the road. The driving test route didn’t cover one single roundabout to test my discipline and I was quite frankly not fit for the road having passed first go.

sonar44

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120725103#Comment_120725103

I was focusing on unmarked lanes entering roundabouts as that's where the discussion has pointed.

I frequently use a particular roundabout where the first left tends to be very busy and slow so drivers looking to to use the second exit, routinely go into the right lane. This isn't just practical, it's environmentally friendly and conducive to overall traffic efficiency.

This is what I mean by not dogmatically sticking to the letter of the law and showing a little mercy, in practice.

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120725976#Comment_120725976

If you examine the pictures (in @chooseusername's post above) of the approach to the roundabout, there is no left lane or right lane - there is only one lane. Squeezing up an imaginary lane to the left of a car already at the yield line and overtaking the other car on the left on the roundabout was not acting correctly.

The other car showed poor lane positioning but in the event of a collision the OP would have been in the wrong.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120725920#Comment_120725920

Because if an Irish driver has to think their first reaction is to slam the brakes and smash the horn. It's reasonably safe here compared to other countries which makes drivers less adaptable and more brazen. Non causal of an accident is often given as an excuse that something wasn't bad.

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120726020#Comment_120726020

It may be practical and it may be the done thing but if you approached the roundabout in the right lane and took the second exit and collided with a car that had used the left lane you would be in the wrong. It's all all right until it isn't.

I frequently use a similar roundabout where there's often a tailback from the first exit but the local authority has taken traffic flow into consideration and clearly signposted, with advance signage and road markings all clearly stating lane priority altered ahead, left lane is for left turn only and right lane for second and subsequent exits.

If there's a problem with a junction layout a complaint should be made to the relevant authorities to have the junction layout altered, winging it and hoping for the best because it's what everyone else seems to be doing isn't going to fix anything and in the event of a collision the letter of the law is what counts.

sonar44

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120726112#Comment_120726112

I disagree. If you collide with a car on the roundabout in this scenario, you are at fault for colliding with the other car full stop, not for being in the wrong lane entering the roundabout. Naturally you should back off if there's a car on the inside lane. My issue is with cars that belligerently try to race or block someone they suspect might be looking to exit and God forbid, they might exit in front. This, or at least the perception of this, is what appears to be the core issue of the op.

ARJn

I am a new Driver passed my test 2 years ago and I can guarantee any old license holder will not pass the driving test in Ireland if they had to re appear

I usually drive and live around south of city and rarely go north , but I was driving toward swords through Finglas M50 and M1 the other day and OMG the roundabout dicipline is non existent to a point that I was confident at one point that eveyone entering the roundabout from left lane will and for sure will not exit on 1 or 2nd exit , while I being in inner lane for 3rd exist had to allows them to exit on 3rd to avoid collision

Cars were moving from right most lane to left most lane with indicators like they have a right of way.

scrubs33

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120725576#Comment_120725576

I’d thank this post a 1000 times if I could. There’s huge inconsistency between older and newer drivers at roundabouts. Indicators mean nothing. I’m ultra cautious now for sudden changes of direction. Clearly they are being told this by driver instructors and are passing tests. If the rules have been changed then surely an information campaign for slightly older drivers like myself would be useful?

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120726047#Comment_120726047

At the very least the other experienced driver positioned himself very poorly for a straight ahead exit. In this type of situation I keep towards left in a roundabout like this for either first or second exit, I keep towards right for third or fourth exits, and signal clearly. I’ll tell you something, it took more than driving lessons and passing the test to know how to handle roundabouts.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120725705#Comment_120725705

More than 120,000 long term learner permit holders who obtained their first licence between 1984 and 2016 have yet to pass a driving test, new figures show. The Road Safety Authority (RSA) said the 125,860 learner permits issued between 2016 and 1984 remain active, meaning they are being renewed every year without passing a test.

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120726144#Comment_120726144

The rules haven't changed. It's even highlighted on the first page inside the cover of the rules of the road, https://www.garda.ie/en/crime/traffic-matters/rules_of_the_road.pdf

There's just a lot of poor drivers around.

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120726131#Comment_120726131

By inner lane I guess you mean right most lane. I avoid using inside and outside because they have opposite meanings here and in the USA so it can cause confusion. Left/right or 1/2(/3) are less ambiguous.

[Deleted User]

I got yelled at the other day by an asshole in a white van.

I was driving down Leixlip Main Street, heading in the direction of The Salmon Leap pub. Traffic was light, traffic lights were green for me at the Spar. Yellow box was clear.

Guy in a large white delivery van appeared turning left into Main Street from the Spar car park, and his van was so big he swung half way across my lane.

Location:

I had to slam on the brakes or he'd have hit me, front drivers side. He obviously didn't bother looking left before starting his turn or he would have seen me coming. Then he had the cheek to roll down his window and start yelling and gesturing at me.

I must check my dashcam for the footage, now that I think of it. Asshole.

sonar44

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120726202#Comment_120726202

There’s also a whole lot more roundabouts with less than picture perfect visibility and multiple non geometric lane markings and exits.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120725976#Comment_120725976

"OP acted correctly in his driving, anyone who doesn’t see this needs to go back to driving school. No wonder incidents take place with the level of ignorance out there"

The only way for the OP's manoeuvre to be correct here is if the car already at the roundabout is indicating right, and even then allow for the fact they may be going straight on.

magicbastarder

i started a thread about badly designed roundabouts before - and this was the one which sparked it. why split the lane into two just as you approach the roundabout, and then merge them again almost the instant you leave?

also, i would never drive alongside another driver on this roundabout, which i think would be a fool's errand, and so would argue that having two lanes going round the roundabout is idiotic. it's the ward roundabout on the old N2, a couple of km NW of the airport.

.G.

There's a roundabout near Tesco in Liffey valley which hardly anybody seems to know how to drive around properly.

For a while the lanes on approach weren't marked but then they explicitly marked them and installed bollards on it to enforce correct lane discipline, those bollards are mostly gone no cos of idiots driving over them from al directions.

newmember2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120726075#Comment_120726075

their first reaction is to slam the brakes and smash the horn.

Irish motorists are very slow to use their horns compared to other countries I find.

magicbastarder

anyway, there's loads of things motorists of all ages and experience seem blithely unaware of. for example, advance stop boxes for cyclists. the number of motorists you see a car length or more past the line they *should* have stopped at is nuts. and you can guarantee if you tried explaining to them that they should have stopped further back, i bet most would look at you like you'd two heads.

sonar44

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120726340#Comment_120726340

If you look at that roundabout closely, there are large pools of water where it would appear commercial vehicles have been mounting the centre and leaving huge holes. I assumed that and poor design was the reason.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3493351,-6.3900424,3a,75y,176.77h,64.29t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sumuUPawHEuTq4g8a02mhVA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120726340#Comment_120726340

There are two of them there, both of them are crap.

Dreadful.

FishOnABike

@magicbastarder does the designer of that roundabout have family in the motor trade or crash repair business?

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120726331#Comment_120726331

The only problem, though it is a rather large one, with that roundabout is that some moron somewhere designated that the right lanes should have a straight arrow rather than right turn only which it should. There would be no need for merging then.

If you were to follow the signs to the letter you can't actually turn right at that roundabout!

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120726428#Comment_120726428

It does look like the roundabout is too small to properly accommodate two lanes and large commercial vehicle drivers have to mount the centre island to avoid encroaching on the lane to their left.

When they get half way around they have the choice of taking out the three metal poles and traffic signs on the centre island or the soft plastic bollard on their left - not difficult to figure out which is the better option.

It's very poor design, and it's not the worst of its kind. There's lots of it about. If a roundabout isn't big enough for two forty foot lorries to drive around safely, side by side, it shouldn't have more than one lane.

There should be standards that have to be followed and are enforced that prevent this sort of poor design.