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Green Party or Greenwashing Party?

MegamanBoo

How can the Green Party continue to support a government failing so badly on it's environmental targets?

https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-climate-targets-6083779-Jun2023/

I think the general consensus among environmentalists is that calling oneself, or one's business, green or eco-friendly must be backed up with concrete evidence or action. Otherwise the label of Greenwashing is assigned for those only willing to maintain the status quo or profit while waving a green flag.

Surely that tag now fits this political party?

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JPup

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120722835#Comment_120722835

No. I don't agree with that. It's not that they aren't sticking to the targets as you put it. As if the Green party could choose to make all the people and industry on this island act in a certain way, but are choosing not to. That's what I mean when I say the government is not god. They can't make this stuff happen overnight.

The targets that this government have put in place are very ambitious, and in my opinion much more so than they would have been if the greens were in opposition.

We are on a road to achieve very significant emissions reductions by 2030 and 2050 with various interim targets along the way. If we end up hitting the 2030 targets in 2033 and the 2050 targets in 2060, is that a failure? No, not in my opinion at least. Realistically, we will still be much better off in 2030 and 2050 than we would have been had those targets not been put in place by this government.

ZookeeperDub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120722063#Comment_120722063

I didn't acknowledge anything, I asked you if you agree that in fact the parties "greenwashing" are FF, FG and SF? do you agree?

You mention a load of efforts which already exists so I am struggling to see what your point is? I would disagree on electric cars, we should stop all subsidies and use the money for other items.

The Green party policies are a good starting point if you want to figure out what they stand for, but like any small party they will never be able to implement the majority of them because the bigger parties block them. You are looking at the wrong party if you want to point fingers.

https://www.greenparty.ie/policies

magicbastarder

the green party are great for FF and FG. when we fail to meet climate targets, people - like the OP - blame the greens instead. always the job of the small partner in a coalition; the failures of the coalition are laid at the door of the small partner, not the big one(s).

ZookeeperDub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120722914#Comment_120722914

Explain why they are a cult?

This is the definition of a cult and I would never say Eamonn Ryan is charismatic and he isn't self appointed.

Cult is a term, sometimes considered pejorative, for a relatively small group which is typically led by a charismatic and self-appointed leader, who excessively controls its members, requiring unwavering devotion to a set of beliefs and practices which are considered deviant

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120722886#Comment_120722886

Epa doesn't project out beyond 2030 that I can see. But it does look like we won't be anywhere near the 2030 targets in 2033. Currently we're on track to miss them by 40% in 2030.

https://www.epa.ie/news-releases/news-releases-2023/ireland-projected-to-fall-well-short-of-climate-targets-says-epa.php#:~:text=Ireland%20will%20achieve%20a%20reduction,Agriculture%2C%20Electricity%20Transport%20and%20Industry.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120722946#Comment_120722946

I'm not blaming the 'Green' party solely. FFG are just as much to blame but their not calling themselves an environmental party.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120722917#Comment_120722917

These measures exist on paper but aren't being delivered/only being delivered at a glacial pace.

The 'Greens' are supporting nice words and pretty policies over action.

That is to say, they're greenwashing.

donaghs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120722838#Comment_120722838

The quote was from 2016, so the population of the RoI was 4.7m. And its jumped to about 5.2m now. But I see now its was an "island" reference, so in 2016 that be about 6.5 million total (NI's population is rising also, but at a much slower rate for some reason...)

The population is indeed going up still, hence the growth projections. But its government policy which allows this. Birth rates are below the 2.4 replacement rate, and still falling. Immigration is driving the growth, so having immigration policies like Australia would be one means of slowing this.

(most people arent "for" or "against" immigration - rather concerned about the rate of it. too much, too little etc)

Any government serious about people's impact on the environment should be looking to regulate population growth.

But Eamonn Ryan is going beyond merely saying, "lots of people are coming to Ireland, c'est la vie, lets plan for it", he's clearly saying we should proactively expand the population, "bringing in people" "in scale".

ZookeeperDub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120723009#Comment_120723009

You raised a number of initiatives which are available. Now you are complaining about the pace? Take Solar PV for example, please explain what you would like different

Also saying you want more EV subsidies, this is the opposition of environmental, the amount of materials and CO2 generated to put new cars on the road is huge, we would be better looking at a program to keep current cars on the road.

I don't want to be confrontational but you are not really making a coherent point on any of the topics you raise.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120722994#Comment_120722994

All of the parties, FF/FG/SF, currently say they have a green agenda and environmental parties. SF have gone out of their way to block environmental projects tried to be implemented by Green party. Same can be said for the other two.

donaghs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120722800#Comment_120722800

A mentioned already, government policy allows it to grow. Since immigration is driving the unprecented population growth, having immigration policies which are skills/points based etc, would be one way of slowing it.

But, and this is the key point on the environmental impact, Eamonn Ryan is going beyond merely saying, "lots of people are coming to Ireland, c'est la vie, lets plan for it".

He's clearly saying we should proactively expand the population, "bringing in people" "in scale".

ZookeeperDub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120722972#Comment_120722972

That's not a cult. I am sure you will find people who do the same for every political party in Ireland. So are they all cults? or are they political parties with supporters? you might not agree with those supporters but that's why you have different parties for different opinions.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120722292#Comment_120722292

So preventing people going to work, leaving their children tom school or checking on their elderly parents etc is no harm as long as there was no damage as such?? That seems to be typical Green strategy. Nonsense.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120723058#Comment_120723058

i didn't say that. you're putting words in my mouth. i merely corrected the misapprehension that the tyres had been slashed.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120723037#Comment_120723037

Since coming to power this government could have been using it's purchasing power to provide solar equipment at cost price. It could have begun hiring and training fitters to install the equipment, again at cost price. The resources are, and have been there, to do this.

Instead we have this mess of 'one a stop shop' system riddled it would seem with price gouging. Which the Greens, as far as I can see, are silent about.

I agree that a wholesale shift to ev isn't viable or attractive. That said, given our population dispersal, it would seem a practical measure to move towards policies supporting urban public transport/rural ev. This isn't happening. A blanket removal of subsidies was allowed.

One of the key environmental tenants of our programme for gov. was to be a 'transformative shift' to work from home and local work hubs. This hasn't happened and again, it hasn't been supported by policy or infrastructure, and again not a squeak from the 'Greens'.

The Social Democrats seem to be making more noise about our failures on biodiversity than this so called Green party.

Yes FFG are greenwashing too, maybe SF, I'm not aware of what they've object to and their reasons (by all means share). But again, they're not calling themselves the 'Green' party.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120723094#Comment_120723094

Well it's still vandalism to deflate tyres and prevent people going about their lawful business but no damage caused alright.

magicbastarder

has eamon ryan thrown coddle on the caravaggio?

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120723121#Comment_120723121

Oh there's damage, there's certainly damage.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2023/06/wildfires-climate-change-impact/674381/

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120723137#Comment_120723137

In fairness to Eamon, I do think his heart's in the right place.

He has an extremely difficult mandate, but he's approach is out of date and he gets out-politician'd by FFG at every turn.

What he's trying to do, compromise for incremental change, might have been a valid Green approach 20-30 years ago.

But he needs to stand aside.

ZookeeperDub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120723109#Comment_120723109

"one stop shop" has nothing to do with Solar PV. "one stop shop" is for a full retrofit. The program was actually recently changed and also the grant to do up old residents which is a great environmental program.

The government does not hire and train fitters, if they decided to do that they would bankrupt a huge section of the construction industry overnight. The current Solar PV companies have backlogs of 6 months for installation it is so popular, why 6 months? well they can't get people to train to install. That is a bigger issue

The work from home has been released since Covid, the hubs are available etc and policies implemented. The topics you are putting forward do not compliment each other, they in fact do the opposite. If you want to push forward on public transport then you don't incentive cars at the same time. This does not work, you do one or the other.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120723198#Comment_120723198

This just rings of GP propaganda. I'd suggest you go and look at the thread in the construction forums about the 'one stop shop'. People getting gouged, left, right and center, finding they can get the work done for far less outside the system. We're way off our delivery targets. Yet the 'Greens' are silent.

Solar can be part of 'one stop shop' or it can be an individual grant. Value of any grants and tax reliefs are quickly swallowed up by the registered providers, who justify their costs on labour expenses. But according to you we shouldn't interfere with these market factors it seems. Again I'd suggest you look at the forums here for people's experiences. Again the 'Greens' are silent.

Legislation was introduced to allow people the right 'to ask' to wfh. I believe some public sector are guaranteed one day per week wfh. Hubs have been introduced, public funded at huge expense, surprise, surprise, delivered by private developers. It's prohibitively expensive to book a seat for a day and now they can't even give away free vouchers. How is any of that supposed to be transformative? Again the 'Greens' are silent.

ZookeeperDub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120723261#Comment_120723261

"GP propaganda" ?

I asked about Solar PV and you mentioned "one stop shop" which is a reference to retrofit, a totally different program and grant. This program is run by Eamonn Ryan department and just removed VAT on solar panels etc. Yet you claim they are silent.

Again you move the goal posts, first off it was we had no efforts, then you said it was the speed, now you are talking about the price. Which is it? As mentioned the issue at the moment with solar PV is the lack of installations teams available due to demand. So people moaning on a forum about price isn't reflected in the number of installation in Ireland. The removal of VAT has reduced the price so clearly the government reacting to

Why would the government introduce legislation to tell companies to WFH and tell them how many days. That is up to the employee and employer. The hubs got demanded by the public, the lack of use is now down to public who prefer to stay at home than use a hub. This is also part of Enterprise department which is not the Green party.

As I said already none of this is coherent since you started and you are just reacting to my posts.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120723531#Comment_120723531

You're trying to shift the blame away from your beloved 'Greens' now by saying these aren't their departments. Or that they're too hampered by the very market factors allowed to develop by them and their government partners.

They are supporting this government and their failures.

Whether solar PV is purchased through the retrofit scheme or a one stop shop it needs to be affordable for a significant amount of people to make a significant difference.

The swallowing up of grant measures by private installers is well documented. I'd suggest you have a read up on it.

But perhaps you'd sooner follow the party line, bury your head in the sand and keep waving that great flag.

Greenwashing.

breezy1985

I bet the OP fapped the genitals off themselves when they came up with this oh so witty thread title.

ZookeeperDub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120723792#Comment_120723792

I dont support the Green Party as I already said. Of course you don't like what I have posted so instead of discussing the topic you go after the poster and try to demean them. That's on you and not me.

I am just pointing out you are blaming a minor party for issues which are out of their control. I am well aware of the SEAI system and the faults with it, but do you have an alternative?

I picked Solar PV because its the most common program at the moment. You are complaining about it while clearly you seem unaware of the program. Also the Green Party had nothing to do with the initial grant program which was a success, then the introduction of FiT which again was another success and the more recent removal of VAT, which again has bumped the installation. If you think this program is a failure I have no idea what you think would be a success?

As I said, a couple of people grumbling on the internet is not a great source of information, especially when the majority of people complaining have installed Solar PV already.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120723838#Comment_120723838

Apologies if I've labelled you a GP member when you're not.

You're just going to such efforts in their defence.

Can I ask then your position on environmental matters?

I'm getting the impression you profess a degree of support for climate change efforts?

But you dismiss anything you believe might disrupt the market as it currently operates. For example my suggestion on public provision of retrofitting and solar PV, right to WFH etc.

Feel free to set me straight, but that sounds a lot like the GP approach to me.

One which I think sets them apart from actual environmentalists these days.

Of course they might not publicly dismiss these efforts, but their actions negate that.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120723792#Comment_120723792

Honestly you appear to be so poorly informed about a lot of the things you are giving out about.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120724099#Comment_120724099

Oh do enlighten me?

I have spent a lot of time looking at the various different retrofitting options. I know how unaffordable they are.

Are we not going to miss the 2030 targets by 40%?

How's that transformative move to WFH and remote hubs going?

Larbre34

Who gives a shyt if we miss the targets? The whole World will miss the targets.

It was a massively overplayed hand coming up with pie-in-the-sky solutions that were never realistic or achievable without massive economic damage and a real reduction in living standards.

Ordinary people, whether in Kolkata or Shanghai or Jo'burg or Dallas, were never going to tolerate that.

You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube, or the Genie back in the bottle. Humans are innovative and aspirational creatures, we do not take backward steps. And that's why when it comes down to the nitty gritty of these targets and what it takes to try and get next or near them, ordinary people all over the World are just shrugging and getting on with their lives.

Its not all bad, there are things in there that should be pursued for their economic benefit, such as energy independence and hybrid working. The cost of the rigged international oil market and the cost of commuting are among the biggest waste of earned wealth. Reducing the impact of both works to benefit people without much of a downside.

And from that the rest will follow over time, for the better and as part of natural societal development. I mean it's only 50 years since steam trains and pre-decimal currency died out. Its only 30 years since computers became an integral part of workplace life and even less for homes and schooling. Yet we could never imagine going back to a time before they were there.

Another human innovation is going to have to be how to cope with the changes in global average temperature and the impact on climate, if they do bear out in line with the scientific consensus. And we will cope. But we will do it by moving forwards, not by going backwards. And certainly not because some pinhead dressed in an Italian wool suit and conveyed in a BMW 7-Series preached at us that we must.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120724389#Comment_120724389

I'd love to share your faith in this magic weather machine. Funny, it sounds a lot trickier than the self driving cars we were expecting about a decade ago. How's that coming along?

I don't believe that people don't care about climate targets. I think they greatly worry an awful lot of people.

We just feel helpless, and a 'Green' party doing more harm than good only adds to that.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120724246#Comment_120724246

I think it's only fair that you respond to my questions first, then I'll take a look at yours