I’d start Byrne but Crowley on the bench if Sexton starts. Crowley can cover three positions at a pinch… and i think i’d rather have him to chase a game.
I think I'd agree with that
Aside from everything else…
He's also seen Munster go to the Sharks with Crowley at ten, be absolutely rudderless and get hammered.
Which was entirely because of the issues at the breakdown. It’s extremely harsh to see that as a negative on Crowley.
He saw Munster go back to the same venue a few weeks later and be in deep trouble until Crowley was replaced by Healy and the game turned.
You have a point here. But it was 22-10 when Crowley went off. A deficit sure, but not insurmountable.
He saw Crowley play against Glasgow who had 14 men and no outhalf for 55 minutes - and saw Munster fail to score for 50 of those minutes.
And then Crowley moved to 12. That versatility is part of the reason he’s a better fit for the 12 jersey, imo.
He saw Crowley play well against the Leinster second string, I think that will cut less ice than you think.
“Play well”. Exactly. Yet you’re using it as a stick to beat him here.
but if the Irish 22 jersey is being decided on proven ability in big matches
Do you think that’s the only thing or should be decided on?
What about form, versatility, make up for the 15 and bench?
NO, I'M NOT. NO, I'M NOT. NO, I'M NOT. NO, I'M NOT. NO, I'M NOT. NO, I'M NOT. NO, I'M NOT. NO, I'M NOT. NO, I'M NOT. NO, I'M NOT. NO, I'M NOT.
You were claiming that his performances in the run-in should mean he gets the 22 jersey. I'm just suggesting that they'll carry less weight with the coaches than you think. As has been widely discussed here, even the Leinster seconds didn't play to their own potential. I'm not using it as a stick to beat Crowley, I'm trying to frame these displays in how i think they might influence Irish selection decisions.
You're deliberately trying to frame me as attacking the Munster player. I'm not. I've gone out of my way to repeat that over and over.
You had a go at me, I explained my perspective in great detail, you could have just let it go or -gasp- admit you were wrong but you had a go at me again.
That's all highly relevant and happy to discuss.
Just a little reminder, it was you who suggested that Crowley should be picked based on performances in the "biggest and most high-pressured games of his career thus far".
That's misreprenting what I said tho. That quote was included in a post which included this.
He plays flatter and offers a stronger running threat than Ross Byrne, he's more versatile enabling Farrell to get a centre into the 23 jersey which we know he likes, and he's brought real direction to Munster's attack.
So be no means was I suggesting we pick Crowley just for his performances in the biggest game.
You were claiming that his performances in the run-in should mean he gets the 22 jersey. I'm just suggesting that they'll carry less weight with the coaches than you think.
You made the exact same arugment with regards Carbery and the Ireland coaches prior to the 6 Nations squad. And the exact same argument with regards Crowley and Carbery at Munster back in April.
It's ok to debate the selections before they happen.
And from what I've seen, and the reasons I've spelled out, I think it should be Crowley in the 22 jersey. Even if Andy Farrell sees more of him than I do.
And another dig at me.
Yeah, I got it wrong on Carbery. Pretty sure we all did. Show me the post where you said back in January that Carbery would be ditched and Ross Byrne would leapfrog everyone into second place.
I'm happy to debate selections. I'd be less inclined to do so if I'll be called out for not being interesting enough, or everything I say being dug up six months later if things change.
Have you ever watched Byrne play? After Sexton Byrne is by far the best 10 defensively. That’s an incredibly weird post. Please show me a match where Byrne needed to be hidden. Any match.
I presume he's talking about the 6 Nations, where Byrne was noticeably burnt on the outside.
But on this:
After Sexton Byrne is by far the best 10 defensively.
From what we've seen from Crowley, I honestly don't think there's much between them defensively, if at all. (With the pace element, there's a credible argument Crowley is better). But "by far" isn't accurate at all, imo.
Shall we just call a truce, FFF... There's really no intention to have a dig. (Nor "bore the arse" off you).
But only my point with the "Farrell sees more of them" argument is that it is almost is brought up for every selection discussion on here now, not just for players with a smaller sample size like Crowley.
To get back to the actual argument:
What areas do you think Byrne is better? And what areas do you think Crowley is? How how does the relate to how Ireland play overall? Or the balance of the bench selection?
We have a very small sample size of Crowley playing 10 to measure that on. Yes though, he certainly seems to be no shrinking violet in defense. If anything I would say he needs to temper his physicality at times.
Crowley is the future, I’ve been saying that since the under 20’s. However I don’t think the last 3-4 games is enough to say he’s the finished product yet.
If Mack Hansen can rock up to Ireland training having only been in the country for a few months, and play himself straight into the starting XV for the 6N, then there's no reason why Jack Crowley can't play his way into the 22 jersey for he RWC. He just needs to back up his recent Munster form in Ireland training and in the warm ups.
Farrell hasn’t been shy of throwing players with a small sample size in tho, as TRC points out.
And I don’t think he needs to be the finished article in time for the RWC to justify selection in the 22 jersey.
I think (of course I would 🤣) Crowley is closer to overtaking Byrne than some here give him credit.
I'll certainly be less surprised to see Crowley get the 10 (if Sexton doesn't start) or the 22 if Sexton starts than I was when Byrne got ahead of Joey
He's been a very naughty boy according to some quarters. It's great stuff!
The logic is pretty solid tbf.
You've just won a back-to-back European Cup.
You're asked what won you the game.
You're obviously going to lie and say it was the maul because.... reasons?
The man was clearly trolling. Couldn't be trusting him with the big Cork grin on his face.
The quote from ROG for those interested, talkng about LAR inaccuracies.
How many mauls did we not get the ball back off of, even tho the maul won us the game, because we took Leinster's legs completely, they were drunk after 60 minutes.
Reading between the lines (and I appreciate this is the Ireland thread, so I'll spin it in that direction): There's a style of attacking play employed by both Ireland and Leinster, with a heavy emphasis on forward pods and how they move the point of attack and generate space for the backs. Tire out those forwards with a lot of mauls, and the evidence (from the Heino final) is that forward dynamism greatly reduces, and likewise did Leinster's back play. So even though different reasons have been highlighted for Leinster losing, you can tie them all together, i.e., the reduced passing and poor exits. They can all be traced back to the damage done by the LaR maul. Leinster did really well to stop the maul on most occasions without conceding penalties, but I think that won them battles at the expense of the war. The ensuing fatigue hurt them elsewhere a lot more.
Ireland may have different ways of coping with such an approach, for e.g., we'll definitely compete at lineout.
You can apply the same thing to the Leinster v Munster game, where the ball in play time was huge. Yes, it wasn't Leinster first choice, but the system was the same, and plaeyrs had been switching in-and-out seamless during the season.
From an Ireland context, I think Beirne, POM and Mack Hansen all would've added something different that could've made a difference.
one of his big, momentum changing moments
Euphemism of the century! 😂
EDIT: also to add to that list - Murray's box kicking.
I hadn't seen the quote but I think you've misrepresented it somewhat.
He acknowledges that the maul was largely unsuccessful - and they didn't get the ball back mostly because Leinster disrupted it. The maul taking Leinster's legs and that being the winning of the game is simply something I will disagree with him on and nothing will change my mind on that.
La Rochelle got plenty of return from their maul, was a big weapon for them.
We facilitated it with two sliced clearances and three kick outs on the full. Nothing handed the 1 point win more to LAR than those 5, uncharacteristic mistakes. Our pack got tired out by our backs having a collectively poor enough day and it's a big blot in Byrne's copybook that he didn't take control of the match.
The biggest missing player wasn't POM, Beirne or Hansen - it was Sexton.
Byrne and Crowley will likely duke it out for the next half season / season and Crowley will start to pull away from there (provided both aren't overtaken by someone else). I'd have no issue either being back up in the RWC, I would have an issue with Sexton not being available.
As for ROG, he plays the game - says what he thinks he needs to. I'd imagine he was full of praise for his forward coach and former team mate Donnchadh Ryan and it's good management to pass around the praise rather than claim it.
In my view Leinster lost that game more than La Rochelle won it.
I really don't think I have misrepresented it tbh. Here's another quote I've previously made on it.
Rog, a coach known for his honesty, has named-checked the maul as what won them the game. More down to how much it sapped Leinster forwards rathe than the advances they made on the maul themselves.
The 2nd part is pretty much exactly what ROG is saying.
Tbf, I think Aloooof's post had an implicit caveat that Sexton was injured for Leinster in the final, and would therefore be injured in the hypothetical setting where a similar maul-heavy strategy were used against Ireland. In that case, we would have a lot more options than Leinster did.
When you suggest it's a big blot on Byrnes copy book for not taking control of the game. I think more of the blame falls on JGP's shoulders.
He completely ignored Byrnes attempts to work the ball in field for the drop goal. Had poor kicks and he facilitated a back line that made a total of 9 passes outside him all by hisnout half.
He can be very good when his team is on the front foot and supplying him with quick ball.
But he can be absolutely headless under pressure.
If Ireland and or Leinster simply clear their lines effectively then a 'maul heavy' strategy gets you nowhere either way.
Not sure about that. Clearing your lines is a massive help. But if you then don't compete and let their maul come back at you repeatedly, you're pretty much flogging your forwards and/or risking penalties, just in a different part of the pitch.
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