Yeah, I remember lots of people on here waiting for Joe's bag of tricks to appear. But nothing new in the 6n was interesting and I'd argue that Munster did a job on Leinster's game plan, maybe not with the first choice team but the plan was the same and it did reveal what's needed to beat it, as LAR did the following week. Ireland are a far superior team to Leinster tho.
Ireland had no new plays in the 6N? Well, there was this.
There were a couple of other lovely scores from preplanned moves, like Sheehan against England.
The Leinster thing is nonsense because Leinster aren't Ireland, and Ireland aren't playing La Rochelle.
The idea that national coaches are holding onto 'moves' a year before a competition just seems completely beyond belief for me. It's a nice narrative for Eddie Jones to hold after a couple of disastrous years though.
Munster didn't reveal to LAR how to beat Leinster, LAR managed it all by themselves the two years prior.
The idea that national coaches are holding onto 'moves' a year before a competition just seems completely beyond belief for me.
Why?
Generally teams are in camp for long enough that lots of new stuff emerges for the WC, whether it's stuff being spared for it or just new work that develops in a longer camp. We always see new moves and game plans emerge at the WC, often to Ireland's dismay. And I didn't suggest that munster showed LaR how to deal with Leinster, if anything its the other way around. LaR broke Leinster 3 years in a row, for me Leinster are to LaR what Clermont were to Leinster 10 years ago. At least Leinster scored tries this time. And honestly, I feel Leinster being unable to get past their own well known limitations for so long actually works in Ireland's favour. Munster lads coming into camp with some momentum is a good thing for me, plus an understanding that there is always someone waiting in the long grass.
Munster should have won that game by much more. I think there are probably things that could be learned.
I don’t think its possible for an international team to ‘play like la rochelle’ after one camp. However, i think south africa could get really good at kick pressure again in one camp.
The only two things I’d really internalize from leinster is to reduce lineouts (keep the ball in play even off exits as much as possible) and run the ball back off long kicks. Don’t get into kick battles.
You don’t have to be larochelle in phase play to do those things.
I'd have the opposite view. Leinster erred by not contesting lineouts at all. Whether that was due to the loss of Ryan, or the outright strategy, it was a mistake. Ireland had one of the best defensive lineouts this past year. An agressive kicking game is critical at the top level
I don't think a team should abandon kicking because they messed up a series of important kicks. They need to make sure that doesn't happen again, by working even more on their exits.
Why would any team with Ryan, Beirne, POM and Doris be afraid of lineouts?
Teams aren't afraid of lineouts, they're afraid of mauls.
Leinster defended the LAR maul quite well, but attacking zero lineouts meant they just didn't have to worry about that aspect at all.
You have to get up at least some of the time I think.
Anyway, SA are the closest thing to LAR on the international stage but they're still not the same. While I have zero interest in discussing or rehashing the final, Leinster were their own worst enemies at a lot of times which I don't think happens with a smattering of other leaders in the tea. I don't think there is a lot to worry about there.
Going into the tournament, lots being written about our gameplan being figured and planned against, but not enough discussion about our defense. I think that's the single biggest positive going into the tournament. Teams can scheme to shut down our attack, but to date no one has shown an effective way to attack us. NZ have probably done best there, but that was mostly due to individual moments of skill than structured success. Likewise France.
I've no doubt that if Leinster had POM, Beirne or even if Ryan had not gotten injured, they'd have contested some of the line outs. It got a bit ridiculous just giving LAR free ball every time.
I think I saw a video somewhere (can't remember where), the Keenan try was not a new play, Ireland had used it before. Though the previous occasion was Rob Kearney, and he was tackled rather than making a break, so maybe we can still count it as new.
Yeah, Leinster used it about 10 years ago under Joe Schmidt for the first time.
I doubt there is very little new new stuff out there, it's all slight variations on a theme.
Something comes up in the video analysis that tells you a team might be vulnerable or susceptible to something, and you put a few plays in place that week in case an opportunity presents itself. Sheehan's try in the first minute of the European Cup Final another perfect example of that; obviously someone had spotted the gap Skelton leaves in the lineout like that, and Conan and Sheehan executed it perfectly.
This one?
Looks similar, but the one I am talking about Kearney was tackled on the gain line. Same move, defence read it though.
Squidge showed where it came from. Eddie Jones did it first, with the Brumbies I think. It’s just variations on a theme. We tried it 3 other times in the 6N with subtle variations but it didn’t come off.
Nope, Leinster sliced through them, the cover got back but not before Kearney released Healy for the try.
In fairness, a move last seen 11 years previously by a different team, we can probably call that 'new'
I meant what the opposition should do sorry. I read it again and that wasn’t clear at all.
We should want as many lineouts as possible.
It wasn't that one either!
Must have used it loads of times so.
They definitely tried it against England as well in this year's 6N but it was well read (Jack Willis I think) who shut the move down with a great tackle right on the gainline.
yeah but the turnover itself generally isnt what 'creates' (for want of a better explanation) the score, there is usually more involved
you could argue its defensive playmaking but i wouldnt have heard it used in this way that much either tbh
The talk about the gameplay being figured out is being said by people who refuse to swallow their pride and admit that this idea of Ireland peaking to early that they've been banging on about for 2 years now looks like it isn't going to materialise.
I believe it was used versus England in 2014 at Twickenham.
And I will argue!
Agree. I know some teams get hot come the WC. Argentina being perennial masters at it, but generally form holds through. Good teams are ones with bedded in systems, that have been performing consistently.
I dunno, I think I recall stats going around after the final of LAR making nearly 60m from their maul?
I’d have to go back to check, but I remember a lot of criticism was aimed at them for not competing almost because not competing didn’t repel LAR much anyways.
They had a lot of mauls. Every lineout in our 22 was a guaranteed maul because Leinster never competed.
I don't have the stats to hand - and honestly I have zero intention of ever looking up anything about the game again - but I don't recall the maul getting points on the board that often. We definitely turned over a couple and several were stopped.
Nonetheless with respect to Ireland, none of that happens post Ryan departing if POM and Beirne are there. Leinster and Ireland are indeed quite similar, but they are not synonymous.
![Photo of [Deleted User]](https://w8.vanillicon.com/v2/8a022abb175d445f2b5b8a1c545f3d3f.svg)
![Photo of [Deleted User]](https://we.vanillicon.com/v2/e7ef1946e92d84157dc464ad6c3ddaab.svg)
![Photo of [Deleted User]](https://wd.vanillicon.com/v2/ddb508ca3281bbcc5001177dc26332a1.svg)
