I don't think classifying some fairly milquetoast criticism of one aspect of a player's game as "**** all over him" is a particularly useful metric for supporting discussion either.
Offensive playmaking is fairly clearly the weakest aspect of Ringrose's game to me, the question of whether simply not as strong as the rest of his game or genuinely a slight weakness seems pretty reasonable to me.
Who said he wasn’t our best 13 or a world class player?
I swear to god some people can’t read.
You don’t have to be great at everything to be a world class player. This is also funny because i got pushback from a munster fan earlier for saying haley is also not a playmaker.
I don't think classifying some fairly milquetoast criticism of one aspect of a player's game as "**** all over him" is a particularly useful metric for supporting discussion either
That's a fair point, apologies to @ulsteru20s
However, the comment, "he’s fine as long as its obviously scripted or a called play" is about a lot more than 'playmaking', and I think it's fair to say that's a pretty strong criticism, that a 13 cannot read the game in front of him and react accordingly, and I would further say it's a million miles from Garry Ringrose.
I’d say that reading the game in non scripted play and making the pass decision (which is what playmaking mostly is to me) is the weakest part of his game. I wouldn’t call him bad at it. But he is certainly not world class at that particular thing. So, yea ‘not trusting’ is prob too far. Its just not one of his strengths. Of which he has many.
I'd separate out the "reading" from the "passing". Ringrose is a superb reader of the offensive game, but that primarily manifests in breaks or half-breaks, rarely in him putting in an unexpected or opportunistic pass to someone else in space, or kicking through.
By @ulsteru20s definition of playmaker, we'd need to be playing Crowley at 12 or something of that nature. It was a (perhaps unintended) straw man that grew out of the discussion on Haley's qualities, i.e., how he can offer a lot more in attack than, say, a Rob Kearney. And yes, JOB and a few other players could do likewise.
My concern, however, is that JOB (and not to pick on him, but I think it's fair to say he's next up at full back) is not strong enough in the fundamentals of full-back play. Nobody has responded to my request for big games where he really stood out at full-back. He had 40 minutes against 14 English players, where he held his own. And he was superb against Toulouse, but on the wing. Where else can we get a decent look at him?
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if Ireland underachieve at this world cup, it probably won't be because Jean Kleyn and Mike Haley weren't named in the 42-man training squad.
No and no one is claiming that Ireland would win a RWC of they were included but there is middle ground here despite a few posters thinking otherwise.
playmaking generally refers to attack. you can have a defensive playmaker too but its usually used in an attacking context
I just don't think there's such a chasm between JOB and Haley to warrant the kind of reaction it's gotten. Both are good full backs, and Farrell appears to value JOB's pace, footballing ability and versatility more than what Haley offers. If he rated Haley, he'd have brought him into camp at least once in his 3 years as head coach (when Larmour, Stockdale, Keenan, Lowry and O'Brien have all been used at 15). Haley was also in camp in 2019 when Farrell was defence coach, so he would have seen him up close then too.
As for Kleyn. It's pretty obvious that Farrell likes forwards who are both athletic and skillfull, so going on that, it really isn't a big shock that Kleyn hasn't made it. I also think his form has been a bit exaggerated. Say he wasn't capped by Ireland in 2019, would the Springboks be rushing to get him into camp? I'd wager not.
Nobody has responded to my request for big games where he really stood out at full-back.
The answer is probably none, because Keenan plays all the big games.
But JOB has played plenty of non-big games at FB and is usually very good.
And as is so often the case, we may not be seeing everything that Farrell is seeing.
Crowley/Frawley at 12/15.. JOB at 15… Frisch at 12/13.. harry byrne at 12… lowry at 15… stewart moore at 12.
All those options are obviously worse than the player who actually plays there.
There is this weird thing in the backs (unlike the forwards as much) where for a guy to be good they have do EVERYTHING. Almost no one does everything and usually playmaking is not the selection priority at 13.
Kleyn is eligible for the Springboks again as far as I can tell - having not played for Ireland for more than 3 years.
How many south african second rows would make the ireland team is a better question than if Kleyn would make ours or theirs.
Snyman and etzebeth would start and beirne would play 6, right?
Maybe start Etzebeth, Ryan and have Snyman for punch off the bench.
Would be very surprised if did anything to compromise his eligibility to play in Ireland.
Married to a woman from Galway, just built a house near UL, brother has moved to Dublin, parents now live in the UK.
I also think his form has been a bit exaggerated. Say he wasn't capped by Ireland in 2019, would the Springboks be rushing to get him into camp? I'd wager not.
There’s a fairly obvious response to this; we don’t have the same depth at lock that SA do.
Disagree. How many tries are are scored from jackling/ turnovers. Its not always fancy stuff.
You might disagree but it doesn't make you right, I think playmaking is widely understood to mean creative / decision making players in attack
I genuinely don’t think I’ve ever heard of jackalling / turnovers referred to as playmaking by anybody else before.
You have now.
I was just playing with myself in the shower.
Playmaker.
Pics?
Was there a winner?🛀
I suppose in many ways language and meaning are subjective things...
Squidge makes an interesting point in a new video on Ireland's WC prospects. No new plays in evidence during the 6N and, given how LaR and Munster negated Leinster's game plan, he argues that it's significant because it likely means Farrell et al have a few tricks up their sleeve that we haven't seen.
it likely means Farrell et al have a few tricks up their sleeve that we haven't seen.
Have heard that before. He's a bit obsessed with the idea that teams/people are building up to secretly unleash plays and plans at the world cup - he thought England were perfectly set for it under Jones! I don't think history much backs it up.
Also Munster didn't negate Leinster's gameplan, they just didn't really play the proper Leinster team. Not sure the result means much.
For perspective Jenkins gets picked for the SA squad. If Ireland had to choose between Jenkins and Kleyn who would you pick? If Jenkins is good enough to get into the SA squad then I'm sure Kleyn is also.
Jenkins is a backup. Moloney for me
Ryan is pivotal.
Jenkins got called up in October. It was his first time being called up in 4 years. And since then Snyman has returned.
They now have the likes of Etzebeth, Snyman, Lood de Jager, and Mostert to select, so I don't expect Jenkins to get back in (and his form has suffered since October).
Our 4th/5th choice lock isn't competing to get past, say, Mostert, is my point.
My inadequacy
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