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Planning Question?

The Parrot

Need some advice. Planning permission for my plot runs out in june 2013 has been extended once before by the previous owner.
we will be able to get the house to roof level by then but not finished,
can we get the planning extended again , i have been reading the planning and development act 2010 and it seems some what contradictor.

if the planning was extended before the act was put in place im ok. but if not i think its a grey area.

i already asked this in the planning thread but i think it was just over looked so im asking again for advice here.

thanks for any help

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JanLee

If you have sought permission for the extension of duration prior to 19th August 2010 (i.e. under the 2000 Act), you can seek permission for as many extension of durations as you want.

If you applied after this date, you are bound by the 2010 Act and you can only seek one extension of duration.

archtech

You should note that under the act, the planning authority can refuse (and have refused) an extension of duration of planning permission.

To be honest I wouldn't bank on you getting an second extension of duration of planning, even if it was technically possible in this instance. At this stage the relevant development plan and policies will have changed at least once and possibly twice.

Only the planning authority can give you a definitive answer I'm afraid.

The Parrot

i personally haven't applied for an extension. as the plot we are buying has the extension already in place. so it will be the first time we apply for an extension.

that was what i was afraid the i have been reading up about update in 2010 ten

The Parrot

EXTENSION OF DURATION Planning Status: APPLICATION FINALISED
Received Date: 20/12/2010 Decision Due Date: 22/02/2011
Validated Date: 20/12/2010

i may be stuck between a rock and a hard place on this one.
was extended till june the 12th 2013, which i see noway of getting this finished by. i think i need to talk to a planner dont i . didnt want to have to do that.

JanLee

Sounds like you'll have to apply for permission to complete the development if you want to build it out. Planner's will want to see evidence of some construction on site, i.e by the time you apply it should be heading for roof level.

Regarding your comment that you haven't appled for an extension before, it doesn't matter who did it. Planning innures with the land, not the Applicant (With the exception of the Local Need issue).

A Country Voice

The Parrot wrote: »

Need some advice. Planning permission for my plot runs out in june 2013 has been extended once before by the previous owner.
we will be able to get the house to roof level by then but not finished,
can we get the planning extended again , i have been reading the planning and development act 2010 and it seems some what contradictor.

if the planning was extended before the act was put in place im ok. but if not i think its a grey area.

i already asked this in the planning thread but i think it was just over looked so im asking again for advice here.

thanks for any help

If you send in your commencement notice now and get it up to roof level before the expiry date, ie "substantial completion" then you wouldnt need an extension. Financial or other matters might not allow this maybe? It seems the safest bet to me to get it up to the wallplate and then you dont need to worry about the planning permission running out.

ACV

JanLee

Agree with the previous poster regarding substantial completion if it's at roof level, once your Architect is happy to sign it off as substantially complete.

Poor Uncle Tom

A Country Voice wrote: »

If you send in your commencement notice now and get it up to roof level before the expiry date, ie "substantial completion" then you wouldnt need an extension. Financial or other matters might not allow this maybe? It seems the safest bet to me to get it up to the wallplate and then you dont need to worry about the planning permission running out.

ACV

The problem then is that the planning permission would have expired and the works are not completed. By virtue of this fact what works are carried out on the site become an unauthorised development by default and carries all the enforcement implications that go with it.

You then need to apply for retention of what is on the site and get planning to complete works.

The Parrot

ok didnt know that well my plan was to get it to weather tight by janurary. i have the finance to do that. thankfully i ended up being one of the lucky spoiled kids ha even ill call myself that.
yes i know. will still need a good mortage to finish it off though. my idea is 3 weeks for foundations 4 weeks for timber frame and 4 weeks for windows so say 3 months so if i start in feb i should be up there by june .
so its a case of getting to it asap. hopfully ill have the paper work really soon and i can get the titles asap. and commence asap lets hope.

A Country Voice

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

The problem then is that the planning permission would have expired and the works are not completed. By virtue of this fact what works are carried out on the site become an unauthorised development by default and carries all the enforcement implications that go with it.

You then need to apply for retention of what is on the site and get planning to complete works.

In my opinion thats not correct Tom.
If works are substantially complete, (most PA's in my experience put the minimum requirement of substantial completion to be that the walls are up to the wallplate), prior to the expiry date of the planning permission then no retention permission is required.
If the developer's architect/engineer signs off on it being substantially complete before the expiry date of the planning permission then there shouldn't be a problem.
I would of course check with the Local PA to see what their take on "substantial completion" is before taking this course of action though.
ACV

The Parrot

thanks for the advice. ill talk to my engineer in the next few days and have a word with a guy in the council , who knows the head planner and get him to talk to him. i to the point were i just want to dive head first and hold my breath till its all over.

the joys of self builds and planning .

Poor Uncle Tom

A Country Voice wrote: »

In my opinion thats not correct Tom.
If works are substantially complete, (most PA's in my experience put the minimum requirement of substantial completion to be that the walls are up to the wallplate), prior to the expiry date of the planning permission then no retention permission is required.
If the developer's architect/engineer signs off on it being substantially complete before the expiry date of the planning permission then there shouldn't be a problem.
I would of course check with the Local PA to see what their take on "substantial completion" is before taking this course of action though.
ACV

I'll get you a reference for a recent ruling, October just gone, if memory serves.

The Parrot

that would be great tom.

A Country Voice

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

I'll get you a reference for a recent ruling, October just gone, if memory serves.

Hi Tom,
Just following up on that ruling.
It would affect a lot of projects which have been slowed down by the economy if substantial completion was no longer valid, (ie getting the house built to wallplate level prior to expiry and then being free to complete afterwards).
I have a couple of clients projects at the moment which would be affected by this.
You might let us know what you know when you get a chance.
Thanks
ACV

Poor Uncle Tom

I'll be back in the office tomorrow, I'll post you the reference.

muffler

A Country Voice wrote: »

ie getting the house built to wallplate level prior to expiry and then being free to complete afterwards

Good luck with that

The Parrot

been doing research myself.
section 42a subsection 4

(4) A decision to extend an appropriate period shall be made
once and once only under this section and a planning authority
shall not further extend the appropriate period.

a really kick in the pants.

But if anyone can find another planing directive that can help please do but im not having any luck. i have even been talking to the council. which were very helpful. shockingly

A Country Voice

muffler wrote: »

Good luck with that

Hi Muffler,
Thanks for the good luck message.
Have you anything to add to the answers the OP is looking for?
We're awaiting another poster who's due to come back soon with info on a ruling that was made in October or thereabouts.
Have you got more info to share with the rest of us?

Thanks again for the good luck message.

ACV

muffler

A Country Voice wrote: »

get it up to roof level before the expiry date, ie "substantial completion" then you wouldnt need an extension............ to get it up to the wallplate and then you dont need to worry about the planning permission running out.

A Country Voice wrote: »

the walls are up to the wallplate), prior to the expiry date of the planning permission then no retention permission is required.

A Country Voice wrote: »

ie getting the house built to wallplate level prior to expiry and then being free to complete afterwards

Where did you get this notion from? Do you seriously believe that if the house is completed to wall plate lever prior to the expiration of the PP then you may carry on regardless?

muffler

A Country Voice wrote: »

Have you got more info to share with the rest of us?

You would need to make an appointment with me and pay for that

muffler

The Parrot wrote: »

bBut if anyone can find another planing directive that can help please do but im not having any luck. i have even been talking to the council. which were very helpful. shockingly

Have a look at Subsection (7) on page 15 of this guidance document

The Parrot

well that section seven dosnt help me lol.

Poor Uncle Tom

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

I'll get you a reference for a recent ruling, October just gone, if memory serves.

Just coming back on this. It was a clarification issue I had with a Local Authority which was cleared up by DOS in October for me. It had a direct bearing on 3 separate planning applications I was working on (all of which have worked out successfully in the meantime) and basically went as explained below.

A Country Voice wrote: »

It would affect a lot of projects which have been slowed down by the economy if substantial completion was no longer valid, (ie getting the house built to wallplate level prior to expiry and then being free to complete afterwards).

That was always my understanding of it as well, and technically you can still do that if the works don't stop. So if I start building my house with say 4 months left on the planning permission and I reach 'substantially completed' stage by the expiry of the permission I can still go ahead and complete the house within a reasonable period. That's even mentioned in the planning act.

The problem we have today with most sites, and I think in this case as well, is that there would be an amount of work carried out, say to 'substantial completion' stage and then works would stop as funds would probably have run out and the site would be left like that until further funds were available to do more. In that case, when works stop on the site and where planning permission has expired, since the works on site are not completed, whatever has been done is considered to be an unauthorised development by default and works cannot re-commence without a new planning permission (retention and completion) being put in place.

There are a few points worth noting and each of the LA's I've checked this with have said the same.
1. The planning departments themselves are not going around checking all sites and have no idea which sites are stopped work.
2. Having the house at substantial completion stage by the expiry of the planning permission means the planners will do all they can to help you secure the new planning permission (they won't refuse permissions out of hand) but there are no guarantees.
3. If the 'works stopped' situation comes to the attention of the planning department via complaint from a third party, the applicant will probably be dealing with an Enforcement Notice as well as a retention and completion planning permission application.

I hope that explains it and I'm sorry for any confusion but I assumed from your post

A Country Voice wrote: »

If you send in your commencement notice now and get it up to roof level before the expiry date, ie "substantial completion" then you wouldnt need an extension. Financial or other matters might not allow this maybe? It seems the safest bet to me to get it up to the wallplate and then you dont need to worry about the planning permission running out.

that you were implying that works could stop once you reach substantial completion stage and that you would not need any planning permission to start up building works again. But of course you do.

Now I know if we didn't have our forum charter we could say things like, "sur the council will never know if I stop works for a year" but we can't say that here. It would not be an acceptable risk to take in any event.

Also there are the implications if you go to sell, or if there is a forced sale, at 'substantial completion' stage where the planning permission has expired.

The Parrot

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

That was always my understanding of it as well, and technically you can still do that if the works don't stop. So if I start building my house with say 4 months left on the planning permission and I reach 'substantially completed' stage by the expiry of the permission I can still go ahead and complete the house within a reasonable period. That's even mentioned in the planning act.

N

given me even more to think about.
can you let me know which section of the planning act relates to this.?

Poor Uncle Tom

The Parrot wrote: »

given me even more to think about.
can you let me know which section of the planning act relates to this.?

I'm quoting my understanding from memory there, I'll have a look at the Act over the coming days and refresh where I'm getting that from.

The Parrot

im stilling thinking i am probable better off re applying for planning. as it getting tighter ans tighter for time.

A Country Voice

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

Just coming back on this. It was a clarification issue I had with a Local Authority which was cleared up by DOS in October for me. It had a direct bearing on 3 separate planning applications I was working on (all of which have worked out successfully in the meantime) and basically went as explained below.

That was always my understanding of it as well, and technically you can still do that if the works don't stop. So if I start building my house with say 4 months left on the planning permission and I reach 'substantially completed' stage by the expiry of the permission I can still go ahead and complete the house within a reasonable period. That's even mentioned in the planning act.

The problem we have today with most sites, and I think in this case as well, is that there would be an amount of work carried out, say to 'substantial completion' stage and then works would stop as funds would probably have run out and the site would be left like that until further funds were available to do more. In that case, when works stop on the site and where planning permission has expired, since the works on site are not completed, whatever has been done is considered to be an unauthorised development by default and works cannot re-commence without a new planning permission (retention and completion) being put in place.

There are a few points worth noting and each of the LA's I've checked this with have said the same.
1. The planning departments themselves are not going around checking all sites and have no idea which sites are stopped work.
2. Having the house at substantial completion stage by the expiry of the planning permission means the planners will do all they can to help you secure the new planning permission (they won't refuse permissions out of hand) but there are no guarantees.
3. If the 'works stopped' situation comes to the attention of the planning department via complaint from a third party, the applicant will probably be dealing with an Enforcement Notice as well as a retention and completion planning permission application.

I hope that explains it and I'm sorry for any confusion but I assumed from your post

that you were implying that works could stop once you reach substantial completion stage and that you would not need any planning permission to start up building works again. But of course you do.

Now I know if we didn't have our forum charter we could say things like, "sur the council will never know if I stop works for a year" but we can't say that here. It would not be an acceptable risk to take in any event.

Also there are the implications if you go to sell, or if there is a forced sale, at 'substantial completion' stage where the planning permission has expired.

Thanks for that Tom.
A very helpful and informative post. Unlike others I could mention, (but won't).
Also nice to get some information from someone without the need to make an appointment and empty the contents of your wallet into there wallet.
Thanks again for your help.

ACV

Novice Self-Build

Did anybody every get a definition of substantial completion or is there any ABP or legal case reference?

Thanks.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120680516#Comment_120680516

good info here

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2055722227/definition-of-substantially-completed

Novice Self-Build

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120681789#Comment_120681789

Thanks so much.

It would seem to be external blockwork and no more.