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Child Item

Abortion - It's back on the Irish political agenda

MrMusician18

Abortion has come back with a bang onto the Irish political agenda this week with the author of the independent report into abortion services appearing before the health committee this week. Following on from this PbP tabled a bill to make the following changes to the existing legislation:

Decriminalise offences under the act

Abolishe the 3 day wait period

Extend the deadline from 12 weeks for non-ffa terminations.

The government lost a vote to put a hold on the passage of the bill for a year.

I suppose if people thought that this was a settled question after the referendum have been shown to be wrong. It will be interesting to see how this plays out, particularly the proposal to allow non-ffa termination at a later than 12 weeks.

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Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120671415#Comment_120671415

Proof they prefer to go abroad? You've got numbers, surely. Most abortions are 'medical abortions' (mifeprisone based) not surgical abortions.

How many women are going abroad?

hoodie6029

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120671113#Comment_120671113

I think the will. Politicians won’t miss an opportunity to make hay either in the media or on the doorstep. Once the government make a move to change the law it gives their (anti-choice) posturing legitimacy.

Even before the report was published Peadar Tobin was saying that he would oppose any changes.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058298859/abortion-its-back-on-the-irish-political-agenda

Did you pay attention to what the actually referendum decided???? Had you don't so you would have known this was coming....

nachouser

Sorry op, but more people care about Phil being a wrong 'un than abortions right now. You picked a bad week for this thread.

It wasnt me123

The 3 day wait was an Irish solution to an Irish problem. Nobody should have any control over another’s body - if Stephen Donnelly or Peader Tobin are so concerned for the unborn babies of Ireland, encourage men to use condoms. It’s insulting to women to think that they can’t decide for themselves what is best for them or their families.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120671489#Comment_120671489

Well that’s petty, but no, I don’t have numbers, I have their reasons, and that’s good enough for me to make the point. I didn’t make any point about medical abortions because I presumed it was clear I was referring to surgical abortions. They just didn’t want to be dealing with the system in Ireland where even aftercare is still something of an afterthought, years after the ABC case.

I was responding to a poster making a point about the realities of childbirth (as distinct from abortion), and pointing out that nobody talks about abortion for the same reasons and many more. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out why people would rather not want to talk about gruesome shìt.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120671648#Comment_120671648

I don't believe your anecdotes about 'women prefer to have their abortions overseas' is because of anything to do with the procedure. It has everything to do with the restrictions in Ireland (12 weeks) and, as you correctly point out, the incomplete implementation here 5 years on from the referendum. Hopefully the legislation being mooted comes into law soon, so the 3 day nonsense can be dropped, restrictions placed on 'conscientious objections' and (obviously) more investment in medical facilities to accomplish the procedure - as far as I remember only a few hospitals are up to speed, due to typical HSE foot-dragging and ineptitude.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120671511#Comment_120671511

Toibin is as expected resisting the proposed changes as they are going through the Dail but that's a whole different ball game from bringing the issue up unprompted on the doorsteps of Meath in the GE campaign and saying he would be pushing to have them reversed in the next Dail.

The historical experience with social change in Ireland is as soon as it is introduced it is regarded as set in stone and nobody but a handful of cranks even tries to roll it back. 40% of the population voted against gay marriage less than a decade ago; who now would try to re-outlaw that?

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120671489#Comment_120671489

There were more than 200 in 2022. There are figures in the Dail Debate I posted a link to earlier.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/2023-05-25/43/

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120671677#Comment_120671677

I don’t mind that you don’t believe my anecdotes, but there’s a rather unfortunate irony in your substituting their opinions for your beliefs, from my perspective, because I don’t have any issue with taking them at their word. I didn’t do 20 questions, because I didn’t want to know.

Restrictions won’t be placed on conscientious objectors, can’t do that, and the issue isn’t even the hospitals, or that the majority of GPs aren’t willing to touch the issue with a forty foot barge pole, investment is also required in terms of aftercare and specialist counselling services. That’s why I mentioned the ABC case from years ago, because services haven’t improved much since Ireland was supposed to provide for proper services. Read the circumstances of the three cases, and then think again why people don’t want to talk about abortion, and why women still prefer to go abroad rather than deal with the Irish healthcare system.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A,_B_and_C_v_Ireland

200mg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120672084#Comment_120672084

I'm no fan of abortion on demand. But I think it may be a bit misleading to say upto the due date. I mean there are cases that my need a medical termination later stages but that's for the doctors to sort out there. We voted on legislators sorting this out Which is fine but what happens if some come in and tighten it up again. Law being the law and all that.

Larbre34

Abortion never left the Irish political agenda for 40 years and it certainly didn't over the last five years either.

A full review of the legislation and services and the experience of patients and providers alike was promised as part of the enactment of the ToP Act and here it is, that's all.

If certain provisions of the original legislation do act as a barrier to access to timely and appropriate health care for women, then it's right that they be changed now, based on the lived experience of women who have engaged with the services until now.

PS Don't worry about the loony left's private member's abortion bill, its just uninformed grandstanding and not what will come from Government in the end.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120672084#Comment_120672084

You don't get to vote this time.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120671415#Comment_120671415

In Ireland the 'reality of abortion' is swallowing a few pills and having a heavy period.

You're spouting BS. Women do not prefer to go abroad, why would they? They go abroad when they must, because of the 'don't scare the horses' legislation. The implementation is far from perfect (and I'm decidedly critical of it) but it's far from the disaster you'd wish it to be. Thousands of Irish women are successfully aborting in Ireland every year, no muss no fuss, not everyone is but it's 95% better than it used to be.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120671511#Comment_120671511

Busted flush and Peadar Toibin is a clown with a party that can hold AGMs in a phonebox.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120671677#Comment_120671677

Currently 11 out of 19 maternity hospitals provide abortions, this is supposed to increase by "a few" (quoth Stephen Donnelly) by the autumn. It's not foot-dragging or ineptitude as such but a deferential attitude towards consultants, some of whom think they're their god's representative on earth.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120672084#Comment_120672084

Thankfully you will not get a vote on this. We decided in 2018 to never have referendums on abortion again.

y0ssar1an22

the classic thin edge of the wedge

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120672362#Comment_120672362

It might not happen in this review but sooner or later any woman who needs to have an abortion will be able to get one in Ireland, and that is a good thing.

y0ssar1an22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120672416#Comment_120672416

needs to have i agree with. but there should be a distinction from wants

Hotblack Desiato

because you know a woman's needs better than she does?

200mg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120672416#Comment_120672416

I agree fully but not as a form of contraception. That's my only issue. I mean I understand no contraception is 100% even if the man wears a condom and the woman is on the pill you can still theoretically get pregnant. If you add in spermicide that would be 3 points of failure very un common. Most inside consensual relations get pregnant due to a lax attitude. That's the only thing I will draw a line on. Medical need is not an issue for me. My partner when in school said at least 3 girls in the school went away for 2 weeks code for trip to England to get a termination. As it would ruin their lives. In my eyes their lax attitude was the issue.

I fully support the morning after pill though. Yes as a contraceptive just not 12 weeks in.

y0ssar1an22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120672428#Comment_120672428

i presume you stopped reading at some stage?

francois

The issue was settled in 2018. Smith's bill won't succeed. The 3 day period will go, and this won't be an issue on the doorstep come election time.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120672343#Comment_120672343

I’d be grateful if you wouldn’t attempt to do my thinking for me, but I know that in reality you’re going to continue to do it anyway and then tell me I’m spouting BS on the basis of what you want to believe I’ve said.

I didn’t say anything about women swallowing a few pills or any of the rest of it. Read the post I was responding to, and why I pointed out that nobody talks about abortion for pretty much the same reasons. I don’t presume to know what women are thinking when I say they prefer to go abroad rather than deal with the Irish healthcare system. I know the Irish healthcare system is shìt, I know they’re taking enormous risks by going abroad, but I don’t ask questions, because I don’t want to know. They don’t owe me any explanation, I can see they’re in trouble and they need help, not a sermon. It’s not an ideal time to be ‘debating’ the minutiae of abortion or the morality or legalities of it or anything else.

You know my opinion on abortion, I don’t agree with it, I don’t support it, but I’m also capable of holding the belief that the current legislation was always flawed from the beginning, an imperfect compromise because some people have chosen to politicise the issues involved rather than deal with reality, and so we have the 12 weeks and 3 days nonsense by way of a compromise. To me that’s just teasing, I don’t need to be a woman to know that the gestation period in humans is about 40 weeks, and women in my experience at least, many of them weren’t even aware they’re pregnant before that time. Government knew what they were doing, and there were people who said “let’s just take what we can get, it’s a start”, and all the rest of it, but that to me was always the worst approach and ignored the reality of the situation - that the supports which are necessary, simply don’t exist. They won’t exist while people are still hell bent on addressing only the symptoms, while failing to address the underlying causes.

So we have a situation where people have to deal with what’s in front of them and moving pretty fast, and that’s not the best conditions for making rational decisions which would lead to an optimal outcome. It’s why GPs are unwilling to deal with patients who need their help, it’s why women will use google instead of going to their GPs, and why the medical profession are aware of their liability under current legislation if they’re prepared to risk helping patients in those circumstances - they make a wrong decision, and not only is it the end of their career, their reputation is in tatters, and the worst case scenario they end up doing time.

Basic stuff HD, doesn’t take a genius, just requires that you leave your own politics out of it, and if you can’t bring yourself to do that much, and you MUST bring your own politics into it, don’t fcuking project them onto other people in 4K. An idiot would be able to point you to numerous examples of people whose own actions do not correspond to their expressed opinions, none so more clearly or obviously contradictory than women who are religious who avail of abortion -

https://www.mtv.com/news/htq731/lifeway-christian-research-christians-have-most-abortions

That still comes as a surprise to some people. And yes, I know all too bloody well there are all sorts of reasons for it, and one could choose to lord it over another human being in unfortunate circumstances and kick them when they’re down, and probe them for answers and generally just humiliate them until they say fcuk it, and give in, or, that person could show a bit of empathy, understanding and respect for a person in unfortunate circumstances, and help them out. You continue to do you though, because that’s working out so well that you can spit stats at me like how 95% of abortions are nothing more than taking a couple of pills. I could be an arse and point out that the majority of abortions are actually spontaneous abortions, but I know what you meant, so I’m not going to be that obnoxious arsehole who cares more about themselves and their own beliefs than reality -

https://www.sciencealert.com/meta-analysis-finds-majority-of-human-pregnancies-end-in-miscarriage-biorxiv/amp

tesla_newbie

Im definitely not “ pro life “ as my position is I have no objection morally to a termination up until the stage of gestation where the foetus- baby - life can feel pain but i really dislike the ideologically “ pro choice “

their rank arrogance and proud displays of unpleasantness, how they dismiss others using the dopey “ anti choice “ soundbite or how they browbeat others with the “ what a woman does with her body is no one else’s business “ , were that a legitimate principle, no one could question a woman for strangling another human with her hands ( hands are part of someone’s body)

the ideological “ pro choice “ lot are insufferable most of the time

uptherebels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669857#Comment_120669857

How many abortions did you think were happening before repeal?

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120672430#Comment_120672430

Back to the misgynistic judgemental crapola of punishing people for a "lax attitude" 🙄

It's none of your business whatsoever why anyone needs an abortion.

Dial Hard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120672430#Comment_120672430

Jesus christ, I can't believe we're back having to listen to this old chestnut.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120672430#Comment_120672430

I do not understand this moralising nonsense.

The number of women using abortion as "contraception" is miniscule, but fundamentally what does it matter? You don't like someone's morals so would restrict their access to a legal medical procedure? Its akin to the difference in treatment of "good" AIDS patients (contaminated blood) versus "bad" ones (gay men).