My impression is not particularly, and certainly not as much as Loughman and Wycherly. He looks for contact rather than the passing option a lot. (And he's had some scrum issues too this season).
His last start was vs Sharks. He's down for 10 carries and 1 pass over 59 minutes.
Josh Wycherley came on for the remaining 21 minutes and had 3 carries by 6 passes.
Now, there's possibly an element of having to force it more later in the game but to me, that would be fairly typical of his season.
Which is exactly why we shouldn’t pick on form.
I don’t believe that Archer is a consistent international standard tight head although his form has been brilliant the last few months.
But when I hear of untouchables, reputation over form etc. then we are back to the 2007 World Cup and we might as well prepare ourselves for an early exit. Which is probably the most likely outcome given the draw we have.
On the 33 man squad, absolutely not. On this squad, i’d have him so that if something did happen to ringrose or henshaw you could bring him in more ready later. He would have some familiarity. Because yea if we had an injury crisis at centre, i’d prefer Frisch to Frawley or Osborne.
It’s more like when you say the sky is blue and someone says nah, its purple. And then you are like, wait no, the sky is blue obviously. And then they say dude you are so obsessed with the sky being blue.
Frisch is 27 which is the literal prime in most sports and is playing really well right now.
Osbourne is much younger and has been injured for weeks.
If we want to get down to brass tacks.
Osborne is also a better player.
In 2027 maybe, now I don’t think so.
"He's 27" isn't an argument for picking a guy.
He has a lot of potential isn’t either at this point.
There have been suggestions of untouchables for every coach since Eddie. Murray and POM in recent years, until they got dropped. This form player or that form player should be picked. To be honest is complete and utter BS. Rugby is a professional sport, that is results driven. Coaches don’t pick on sentiment.
Furlong is most definitely off form but you are comparing him to a level of performance Archer has never nor ever will achieve. Furlong playing poorly is probably still a far better performance than Archer playing well. We just know he can play a hell of a lot better.
Frisch?!
Think I'd have him down around 10th choice 13 if he's up against the following players: Ringrose, Henshaw, J. O'Brien, Aki, Osborne, Hume, Luke Marshall, Stewart Moore, Tom Farrell, Ciaran Frawley.
He's fine, but nothing special. It's not controversial in the slightest that he hasn't made this panel.
Couldn't agree more.
Furlong playing poorly is probably still a far better performance than Archer playing well.
I don’t expect Archer to be anywhere near the Irish setup so this is moot, but I couldn’t disagree more with this, given the respective performances we’ve seen over the last 2-3 months.
People are over exaggerating Furlong's poor performances too. His issues have been his durability and getting him on the field and then keeping him there, but while he's been out there he has played pretty well. He hasn't been as effective a carrier or in loose play, but has held up in tight exchanges just fine.
He was good against both Scotland and England in the 6 Nations, and was good in the European Cup run in. Part of our problem in the final was losing him (and James Ryan).
He hasn't been at his exceptional best but he hasn't been a negative either, by any stretch.
It's not, but "he wasn't that good three years ago" isn't either. I don't think age is a particularly valid criteria for the world cup (preparation) squad. If the coaches are already looking beyond that then it makes sense to pick an early 20s player over a mid 30s player all else being equal.
I'd break the squad down roughly like this. Some players would fit several categories but I've stuck with one each.
Undroppable (UND) Clearly best player in position, top talent, always performs
Credit in Bank (CIB) Best in position, out of form/injured
Big Potential (POT) Young, talented, still a lot to prove
Dependables (DEP) Not first choice, always performs
Versatile (VER) Can play several positions to high level
Dan Sheehan (Leinster) UND
Rónan Kelleher (Leinster) DEP
Rob Herring (Ulster) DEP
Tom Stewart (Ulster) POT
Andrew Porter (Leinster) UND
Cian Healy (Leinster) DEP
Dave Kilcoyne (Munster) CIB
Tadhg Furlong (Leinster) CIB
Finlay Bealham (Connacht) DEP
Tom O’Toole (Ulster) POT
James Ryan (Leinster) UND
Tadhg Beirne (Munster) UND
Iain Henderson (Ulster) CIB
Ryan Baird (Leinster) POT
Joe McCarthy (Leinster) POT
Kieran Treadwell (Ulster) DEP
Peter O’Mahony (Munster) UND
Josh van der Flier (Leinster) UND
Caelan Doris (Leinster) UND
Jack Conan (Leinster) DEP
Gavin Coombes (Munster) POT
Cian Prendergast (Connacht POT
Jamison Gibson-Park (Leinster) UND
Conor Murray (Munster) DEP
Craig Casey (Munster) DEP
Caolin Blade (Connacht) POT
Johnny Sexton (Leinster) UND
Ross Byrne (Leinster) DEP
Jack Crowley (Munster) POT
Ciarán Frawley (Leinster) VER
Bundee Aki (Connacht) DEP
Robbie Henshaw (Leinster) CIB
Garry Ringrose (Leinster) UND
Stuart McCloskey (Ulster) DEP
James Lowe (Leinster) UND
Hugo Keenan (Leinster) UND
Mack Hansen (Connacht) UND
Jimmy O’Brien (Leinster) VER
Keith Earls (Munster) CIB
Jamie Osborne (Leinster) POT
Calvin Nash (Munster) POT
Jacob Stockdale (Ulster) CIB
Furlong has to play if he is fit and he should be fit. He is way too good to drop.
I agree with the approach you're taking, but not necessarily all the classifications.
Where I would differ though is I don't believe Jamie Osborne is in this squad with one eye on the 2024 Six Nations or 2027 RWC. He's a very talented player, who the coaches and management believe could potentially be a bolter for this world cup.
It's not a direct competition between him and Antoine Frisch or Shane Daly or Jordan Larmour, but he is in this squad because the coaches feel he can be a contributor this time around, same as all the selections people on here are finding hard to understand.
Questioning Osbourne over Frisch will lead to some very quotable posts in a couple of years
I think you’re missing the point somewhat. I don’t think Furlongs performances have been that poor. Respectively I don’t think Archer has outperformed Furlong from what I have seen. Just one has upped his level of performance and is being judged on that. The other has underperformed and is being judged on that. It’s always going to seem favorable to the one over performing.
I think the assumption that new leinster players of each successive generation are automatically going to be as good as the ones that came before will be very entertaining in a few years as well.
Respectively I don’t think Archer has outperformed Furlong from what I have seen.
I don’t think I’m missing the point tbh; I just think we disagree on their respective current form.
Imo, Archer’s been better.
You keep building that strawman anyway. Give you something to play with
Sure…
Comments on here about Frisch are missing the point so spectacularly, perhaps it just hasn't been made yet.
We're talking about the initial 40+ squad. Frisch would have needed at least two injuries to make the plane. I think even the Munster fans who have closely watched him all season would struggle to put him in ahead of the main 3 and a more versatile 4th man who provides broader cover in the backline for short term injury.
But suppose injury does strike two of Ringrose, Henshaw and Bundee. You have now squandered the AI, 6N and now the summer camps to have Frisch up to speed with the systems. You're basically signalling at that point that you're happy to start Frawley or Osbourne for the rest of the World Cup, over a specialist centre who was one of the best players for the league winners.
If that's your opinion then it is what it is. But apply the right context.
I guess the answer to that is that there's a limited amount of reps and effective training time and they want to prioritise the first 3/4 players in each position. We can see the risks though, the training squad seems light on props, 7, 10 and 15 at least.
I think this is the exact right context.
I don't think anyone has actually argued that Osborne is being picked for the player he will be a year from now. No one should be in this squad based on anything other than what they can do in September and October 2023.
Equally, if Osborne gets abducted by aliens tomorrow, who comes in? It could just as easily be Hume, or Tom Farrell, or Stewart Moore. The assumption that Frisch is next cab off the rank, or has lost out to Osborne is entirely untested.
BTW, your "what if injury strikes two of Ringrose, Henshaw and Bundee" scenario completely overlooks the presence of Stuart McCloskey. He would play alongside the last man standing from the first choice trio.
Osborne was preferred to Frisch at 13 for Emerging Ireland as far as I remember. He doesn't just have more versatility, but also is a better pure centre.
Osborne is a totally different level player to Frisch, if you ask me.
Yeah, I don't disagree, and my own squad (of 45) differed in composition (and I had included Loughman, Salanoa, Kleyn, Hodnett & Baloucoune) but if they have to think about getting the 4th or 5th choice options up to speed in every position, the overall training squad will be c. 60 players and utterly unwieldy from a training perspective.
As @AdamD has said though, Frisch not being in the squad is not a position where this problem is that significant (so not sure why it's provoking so much debate) - there are other areas where our depth looks shallow.
If Ireland win the world cup, or even just win a knockout game I will happily eat my words
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