Well we are not going to get tailor-made facilities for every category; dog walkers/fast cyclists/slow cyclists/children/walkers etc etc so you and everyone else are just going to have to suck it up and learn to live with one other. There is only so much in the pot and people should be damn glad they are getting any facility at all.
Yeah but let's be clear here, we need the amenities for the dog walking crew too, it's just that paying for that out of the Active Travel budget is an outrageous abuse of the funding.
I continue to make written public submissions to the effect that completed "urban" (roadside) greenways near me should not be shared infrastructure and I continue to be told I'm wrong. I'm also being told that I should either commute more slowly or cycle on the road. There's no winning there.
It's all down to people living in their own entitled little bubble, and it's not just dog walkers.
You should see the Dodder. With WFH loads take their little pup out for a walk around 8AM right when the commuter road trains come through. Pup walks left side, owner right, nice little lead strung over the entire width. Bit of a bugbear of mine.
Sligo Greenway public consultations
A lot of it is marketing. I live approx half way between Waterford and Carrick-on-Suir. The Waterford greenway is of course well known and publicised. I only discovered the Carrick blueway by accident one day when, after years of meaning to, I finally went down to the river in Kilshelan at that little car park to see what it's like down there and discovered there was a whole trail by the river.
I also discovered a forest trail very close to home that I never knew was there. Since then I've gone out of my way to find these places in surrounding counties and places I've gone on holiday and had many nice walks.
It's funny alright. People in Limerick talk about how amazing it is to have the Greenway about a half hour drive away but forget we have the far more aesthetically beautiful trail through Cratloe woods on our doorstep for years.
It's not that Cratloe isn't busy it's just nobody goes on about it. It's not the only example in Limerick either.
Yup .. i suppose theres room and demand for all of these , but greenways are the buzz word of the day ..
They already exist as waymarked walking trails, they're not as sexy as Greenways even though they are far more green from an environmental impact pov than a Greenway could ever be.
As the crow flies is an odd criteria given there are so many potential start points and destinations it can only be as the crow flies between a limit portion of them.
Maybe Limerick is different given the larger population but in most parts of this country, it probably is hard to justify cycle lanes if there is a nearby Greenway serving the same route. It would be better to put resources into providing adequate facilities on other routes.
I'm sure there are plenty of commuter cyclists who are quite happy with the city to UL Greenway, regardless of the number of pedestrians.
By active travel I mean commuter routes. That may be to schools, work or urban centres.
Yes active travel would be urban or get to somewhere urban.
The example I will use is the one I know best which is Limerick. The actual Greenway is not a commuter route as it is not "crow flies" for the most part. The city "Greenways" are city to UL which has too many pedestrians for an efficient commuter cycle and a tiny stretch in Castletroy which is actually very good for the people who live on the few hundred metres it covers.
I'm all for Greenways it's just they should not be and are not an alternative to cycle lanes.
If by active travel you mean segregated cycle lanes on roads, apart from the large urban centres, there would be limited demand for such, particularly if the is a Greenway along the corridor. For longer distances, >20km, it would be expensive to provide as you are on roads through rural areas. Most people would favour an offroad Greenway if available. In towns and villages where speed limits are reduced, cycle lanes beside the road becomes workable and attractive to more people, but that is probably not attractive for race training.
Active travel is people moving around under their own steam in the course of their daily lives, a segregated Greenway is the best option for this as it caters to a wide variety of users. Active travel certainly isn't just people going quickly from A to B for work or race training.
If you think Greenways are confusing, look at Blueways! You can walk some Blueways but you need a canoe for others and I think I've read of one where you snorkel or swim! Wouldn't be surprised if you need a dinghy for others.
But I agree, Greenway is too catch all and should imho only be applied to low speed leisure cycling and walking, tourists etc. Problem is that it's a catchy phrase and is thus used to catch funding.
"I think the issue being raised is that it is difficult to cycle at a constant high speed but that really isn't the point of a Greenway"
I am in agreement which is why I don't think Greenways should be built using Active Travel money or advertised as active travel.
People wanting to go quickly from A to B for work or race training most likely don't use Greenways. You say they should pick certain times but truth on the ground is they just pick the road as I do myself.
Greenways need to happen in parallel to active travel not as active travel.
Well I've said here several times before that I think the term Greenway is used too liberally and really should be limited to routes of a certain standard. There should be a formal definition and other terms for paths of a lesser standard.
Of course you will have people walking at all times of the day but there shouldn't be an issue with that. I think the issue being raised is that it is difficult to cycle at a constant high speed but that really isn't the point of a Greenway.
By targeting certain times, I mean someone looking to cycle at speed should probably look to finish their cycle well before 9am on weekend mornings when numbers of other users are likely to be very low. I'd imagine their would be few users between 10am and noon on school days too.
No, where I have greenways near me locally, the bus stop is on the greenway. The train users alight onto the greenway. There's churches directly on the greenway. There's schools on the greenway. So there are regularly people grouped on the greenway at commute hours. I appreciate that this doesn't apply to every greenway, but it certainly applies to the ones near me. If anything it's safer at a higher speed outside of commuter hours.
Something going through literal green fields or long stretches of empty road? No major issues. Something going directly past shops, churches, schools, community centres? Greenways are totally inappropriate there. Segregation should be used past these.
I suppose for me a greenway is a route largely through greenspace ..not really a road side path - they do tend to be shared space so that going to reduce bike speeds
A cycleway would be a laned cycle path , - i'm just not sure whats the attraction of putting them up the middle of a foot path ..
And i see nothing wrong with a track or trail , thats not supersmooth - not suitable for bikes or buggys .. but i suppose it needs a different name ..
The only thing close to a Greenway I have ever used at commute times is also used by walkers at commute times. I would imagine places like the Dublin canals are the same.
If cyclists want to cycle at speed what already happens is they target the road leading to all sorts of crying from car users about them not using the "cycleway"
Most people regardless of whether they are cyclists walkists, talkists or dogists are going to use it in the evenings or weekends when not working so any group "targeting" a particular time is nonsense.
There is likely very few charity events or groups of people chatting at typical commuting times so likely not a big conflict there. Dog walkers are always a possibility but probably not in significant numbers at typical commuting times.
It's probably more the high speed leisure cyclists who have problems with what you described but it's a public facility and if they want to cycle at speed they should target times when less other people are likely to be using it.
The Sligo Greenway new website went live yesterday
https://sligogreenway.ie/
Except for the farmers who want Greenways on the side of the road 🤣
I think a big factor too is that it's sometimes MUCH easier to get "greenways" through public consultation processes than it is to get cycle infrastructure through.
Greenways are for "us" whereas cycle infrastructure is for "them" if you know what I mean. I have seen this myself in my own locality.
Councils and parties can point to money being spent "on cycling" and the anti cycling crowd can point to "shure did we not give ye a cycleway down the road" any time a proper cycle lane is suggested on a main road.
It's painful how many times I have heard them referred to as "cycleways".
Are there any actual figures out there on the cycle/walk splits on Greenways ?
I suspect that a lot of it is down to pandering to various cranks well intended lobby groups and individuals and this pandering is being done by people who don't commute by bike so don't understand the issues.
Yep, my issue is that if I'm stopping for stretchy dogs leads and charity events and groups of people chatting, and generally needing to stop for every side-road and boreen that I pass, it becomes a very low quality piece of commuter infrastructure. A high quality piece of leisure infrastructure though. So when we build "greenways" as commuter infrastructure everyone gets a lower quality end-result.
Some leisure people get irritated by people trying to commute, some commuters get irritated by leisure users. And then there's the whole left/right slalom game which can be dangerous. If it's coming from the "transportation" funding bucket I'd like them to be for transportation.
See it's that last bit is my problem. Greenways don't really provide a "safe, sustainable and healthier alternative to private car use"
I'm sure some people will get that benefit but they are not commuter infrastructure.
Its all funded from the one bucket I thought? the 360 odd million annual allocation for bike routes is paying for both no?
Or is greenway funding on top of that?
Edit: Yeah it all comes from the one pot
Separately, funding of approximately €63 million through TII’s Greenway Programme will see the ongoing development of around 70 Greenway projects around the country. The funding will see construction continue on a number of projects which will be completed in 2023, with other projects moving through planning and design stage.
This funding forms part of the overall Programme for Government commitment of €360 million per annum for walking and cycling, so that more people can choose a safe, sustainable and healthier alternative to private car use.
The problem with Greenways coming under active travel is it's a handy and popular way to spend money that should be going to upgrading high volume "crow flies" cycling routes.
Any word on when the cycle bridge over the Shannon in Athlone is actually going to open? All I can see online is that it would be the end of May at the earliest (was originally supposed to be Easter). I pass it most days and it looks painfully close to being ready, will be good for my commute when it opens.
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