If being an unaligned country with a large army is no deterrent to Putin's ambitions is it time for ROI to join Nato?
Youre hearing about it while Ukraines in the news. Thats your window of opportunity. Soon as it ends therell be no boogieman to point to, nothing to hype. Youre relying on short term, ingorance, and knee jerk reactions, and clickbait news.
Well were hearing more and more about NATO,
It's safe to say things are going to change,
Yeah but we're still not in nato, so keep complaining, nobodys listening.
Satellite surveillance, a very long voyage, and the opponents defensive alliance with missile producing countries.
Not at all promising.
No need for the mixed bag of nutjobs that is nato.
I think Ireland are better off with the status quo. Joining NATO puts a bigger target on Ireland. and Ireland is the soft underbelly of Europe as it is it.
Ireland is much better increasing/maintaining it's soft power in the EU and other nations, in my opinion.
How would the Irish electorate feel about increased Military spending and militarisation of Ireland? I don't think it is feasible as Ireland's size of country is too small to mount any serious defensive position.
In reality Ireland has protection from the UK and the USA if Ireland is invaded. As the UK would not want it's borders threatened, the USA would not stand for it from a geopolitical standpoint.
So what advantage would joining NATO give to Ireland that it does not already have from it's protection from the UK and the USA.
I for one look forward to SatCen coming to our aid if we ever need it, they are the pinnacle of security respondents
Your net contributions are starting to sound to like water meter protesters we don't need to pay for water,we pay road tax,do you own a car no I don't,but me mammy does
Exactly, we dont have to be members of nato to do so. All of the means are within Europe to do so.
And we're a net contributor to Europes stability and security, which by definition makes it impossible to be a sponger.
You can self flagelate all day if you like and consider yourself a sponger, I wont be joining in such nonsense.
No you did not misquote me you lied.
We do indeed belong through our membership of the EU to a number of EU agencies which do indeed have a small bearing on our security, defense and intelligence capabilities.
You can refuse to accept that when it comes to military capability that we are spongers. But it does not change the fact that we are indeed spongers. We do not have a military capability that is legitimate and thus are dependent on other countries to make up for that fact. Thus we are spongers.
Apparently you have a parochialism when it comes to countries from outside the EU and or Europe as regards to having the military capability to defend the democratic free and open societies of which we are one. Personally I do not share that parochialism. I would be happy to see us allied with countries like Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea and the USA when it comes to having the military capability to defend ourselves against oppressive authoritarian regimes such as the authoritarian dictatorship that is Russia. It does not necessarily mean we must be a member of NATO to do so. It does mean we need to develop our own legitimate military capability so that we are not continuing to be spongers.
Very well I misquoted you.
Although we have now established that the EU agencies, such as enisa, csdp, eu satellite centre, (and frontex, and europol) do indeed have a bearing on our security, defense and intelligence. Great that we can all agree on that.
I still dont accept any accusation of spongers though. We contribute our share to all of those agencies. An Irish commander led one of the recent csdp african missions. And an ex-taoiseach was primarily responsible for creating and establishing one of the above agencies. (Clue: awful).
There are downsides and upsides to our geographical location. Its far more difficult to trade, we have far fewer economic options, everything costs price+shipping. We dont get an award or praise for putting up with such downsides.
The upside is we've much less need of a strong military, its far more difficult to invade than if attached to the same economically bustling continent. So why should we accept any condemnation for spending relatively less on our military. When we get the praise for weathering the downside Ill be happy to accept any condemnation for the upside.
If we do have a duty then its to the EU, an entity which helps us and which we in turn pay into, as net contributors, not nato.
We already have our partner, of several decades long standing. One which gives us satellite intel, cyber defense, defense assurances, and foreign extremist and international human-intel.
A trusted partner from our own continent, so that we dont need a fifth wheel steered by America. Europe first. Not America, not Russia, not the Arabs or the Chinese. God knows theyre all looking out for themselves first. Not us.
I respond by saying that yes as a member of the EU we have played roles in various EU agency's such as ENISA for cyber defense, The EU Satellite center and CSDP although our role here is severely truncated by our triple lock policy currently. Ireland is part of PESCO although again our role is very minimal.
Now when you claimed, to quote you "EU membership has no bearing on our defense, security or intelligence capabilities" that is an outright lie. I said and I quote what I said again:
"No question as members of the collective that is the EU we are playing a very positive role in supporting Ukraine within the EU. That though has little bearing on being a member of NATO or not or our own defense, security and intelligence capabilities."
The key word there being "little" and I stand by that the small role we play in some of these EU agencies is due to our lack of a legitimate and capable defense, security and intelligence capability. I did not say no your claim that I did is a lie. That is as you like to say a fact.
As is the case that our lack of military capability means that we currently are acting as spongers in that regard due to our dependency on others to pay for and do what we have not the capability to do. Another fact.
You said that EU membership has no bearing on our security, defense or intelligence capabilities. Its a few posts up above.
Our membership of the EU permits us our position in Enisa, Csdp, pesco and EU sat-centre.
These EU agencies co-operate with us on cyber-security, defense procurement, satellite intelligence, and on joint foreign missions.
Those are facts. And those facts are in direct opposition to what you said.
How do you respond?
Speak for yourself and to yourself if you want to use derogatory comments about Irish people. For me I am simply pointing out the fact that Ireland has no legitimate military capability and as such sponges off other countries in that regard. The fact that you cannot accept that does not change the reality that it is the case.
Indeed we are net contributors to the EU budget a fact I have acknowledged. The EU is not a military alliance and our membership of the EU does not have a bearing on the fact that we do not have a legitimate and capable military capability.
Just the old self flagellating Paddy act.
I wouldnt mind but youre also showing a disappointing lack of knowledge.
We're net contributors to the EU, and work with (and contribute to) CSDP, Pesco, Enisa, Europol, frontex and EU SatCen.
These EU agencies most certainly have a bearing on our defense, security, and intelligence.
Those are facts. Try using them. Facts.
We are indeed spongers and selfish when it comes to our own defense, Security and intelligence capabilities that is just a fact. We do not have capabilities in these areas with our current military and are dependent on others thus we sponge off others in this regard.
Being a member of the EU does not have a bearing on our lack of military capabilities because to answer your question it is not a military alliance.
Dont Cathy Newman me.
The refugee reference just shows that contributions are contextual, and each country has its own circumstances to take into account.
Denmarks balance sheet may lean more in the direction where a simple transfer of assets and funds is the better approach, and their politicical situation may make taking refugees the less feasible option.
We may have something in the opposite direction.
Ok so you acknowledge that outwith accepting refugees from Ukraine, Ireland has not made a substantial contribution to supporting democracy in Ukraine.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1312584/ukrainian-refugees-by-country/
According to this stats site Ireland has taken twice the number of refugees as Denmark has.
This is what I would call substantial support from a comparable country to Ireland
Denmark shows solidarity with Ukraine through multifaceted and long-term support provided bilaterally and in concert with our partners and allies. Since the outbreak of the war, Danish support to Ukraine amounts to approximately EUR 1.3 billion in military support and EUR 192 million in civilian, including humanitarian, contributions. Of the civilian support, approx. EUR 152 million has been donated and approx. EUR 40 million has been guaranteed. The Danish support to Ukraine excludes danish support via the EU.
In your opinion.
Id say in terms of help sent we've done ok, but could do better. And will.
For our size, and for our circumstances. And for Ukraine being a non-EU country.
Kiel has the US, a Burchaest memorandum country, at 0.4% of gdp.
Irelands gdp is obviously unreliable as a measure, at approx 0.2%
Ireland has done **** all for Ukraine in fairness. What we have done though is take in a lot of Ukrainian refugees, but in terms of actual material support? Its been a bit pathetic.
Whos to say.
That's not substantial by any means
https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/bc7ca-irelands-international-response-to-the-war-in-ukraine/
https://www.irishtimes.com/world/europe/2023/05/19/irish-troops-return-from-first-training-mission-for-ukranian-forces/
https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2022/09/24/ireland-has-given-55m-in-military-aid-to-ukraine/
What considerable aid
Of course being an EU member absolutely has a major bearing on any question about joining nato. As well as a bearing on our defense, security and intelligence capabilities.
How could you possibly think otherwise.
And why are you telling me that we need to develop our own capabilities? Have you seen me say we shouldnt?
Calling us spongers is yet another fail. As net contributors to the EU, and as a nation which has sent considerable material aid to Ukraines fight against Russia its plainly ignorant to come out with such drivel.
Love your projection there with your second sentence. Good stuff. Your last line is very adult too I must say.
No question as members of the collective that is the EU we are playing a very positive role in supporting Ukraine within the EU. That though has little bearing on being a member of NATO or not or our own defense, security and intelligence capabilities.
I never said we should join NATO either so save your adult responses for yourself on that one. What I said was we have to develop a legitimate defense, security and intelligence capability so that we can play our role in defending the democratic free and open societies of which we are part rather then being the current spongers in that regard that we are.
What is this 'at least you admit' silliness.
Can you not accept simple facts like an adult.
We are taking a great deal of refugees at great expense, and our response to Russia causing this cost to us is to join in with the rest of the EU in hammering Russia with sanctions while sending huge aid to Ukraine.
We are net contributors to the EU, and we send a great many millions in aid to Ukraine, while taking in many refugees. We're doing our part and we're part of a great team, the EU. Nato can go and shyte.
Well at least your admitting that the authoritarian dictatorship in Russia has already cyber attacked our HSE. But not surprisingly ignoring the fact that the Russian dictatorships invasion of Ukraine is costing us significant financial damage due to the billions we are losing from taking in the 80,000 odd Ukrainian refugees and the loss of hotel beds for our tourism industry. All of which show that we need to develop a legitimate defense, security and intelligence capability so that we can not just defend ourselves but play our part in defending the democratic free and open societies of which we are part of and the collective that is the EU from which we benefit enormously.
Anyhow, it seems the Triple Lock is to be dumped, which is a great thing
