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Child Item

Custody/handover problems

Atamiri

Hi, I'm seeking an advice. I and my ex have joint custody, our son is 4. After being with me for three days, he didn't want to go with her, started crying and hugged me. She tried to remove my hands from him and then ripped him out of my arms while being verbally aggressive to me. He then threw a tantrum and was crying after me.

I'd like to avoid any drastic measures (like court orders) but I'm naturally very concerned since I believe this behaviour of hers may negatively affect our son's mental development. What should be done in such a case?

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Eddie B

Try to avoid another situation which has occurred. Work with your ex, to avoid anything that may affect your child..

Is there anything you could have done different, to avoid said situation from happening?

I know it can be difficult to avoid conflict, especially when an ex is, well let's say, being unfair, or just plain nasty. Thing is, there are no winners when it turns into a blame game. It really does take two to tango, and the biggest looser will be the child.

Work with your ex, so's your child doesn't get affected by either of your actions. At the end of the day, that's all that really matters.

Atamiri

Thank you for your response. I don’t know what I could have done differently, this happened for the first time since the court hearing (before which access was withheld for months). My ex doesn’t talk to me so it’s a little complicated to “work with her”. Our son never wants to go to her place but until now he was only crying at home.

Senature

It sounds very tense and stressful.

Is there a way you can arrange the handovers so they are not from one parent to the other all the time? Your son is four so maybe not in school yet, but for example one of you could drop him to school in the morning and the other could collect that afternoon.

Also, in my experience, the kids were always more relaxed about being dropped off somewhere, than being picked up. If this is not workable for you to drop your son to your ex, is there a relative, who you could bring him too, and she could pick him up from there? Might diffuse the situation a bit?

Finally, talk to your son a little bit about this. Let him know what days he will be with each parent, a simple wall chart with pictures might help him. You could also put his other activities on it, e.g. Wednesday might be school, football, mum. Let him know in advance when mum will be coming to collect him e.g. after lunch, so he isn't taken by surprise. Tell him a plan for when you see him again, like when I collect you on Saturday we will go to see the ducks in the park and get ice-cream.

The changeovers might just be difficult for him. Hopefully you can get him into a routine and things will settle down.

Princess Calla

There's going to be a settling in period until a routine is established.

You mentioned this is the first time it happened? No point in over reacting.

You see this type of behavior every morning at creche drop offs . It really is best to give a quick hug and kiss and scarper. The kids are fine within a couple of minutes. Making a massive production at drop offs is of no benefit to anyone , the end result is the same.

Reassure them that you love them, confirm you'll see them in 3 days time and leave.

If it's still happening after a routine is established then I'd start to get more concerned.

[Deleted User]

Sorry to hear this, OP. The handover period can be so, so bitter - especially when the Court has been perceived to have destroyed one parent's status over the other's (this can include 50/50 shared parenting as one gender in particular would see that as a loss).

It is so, so hard to rise above it when one has been destroyed. The poor kids, always. I think the suggestion of getting somebody else to do the handover might be wise, as there's a lot of evidence that recurrently tense handovers can do long-term damage to kids. Just bear in mind that times will happen when your child doesn't want to go with you, either. Nothing personal at all. If you can allow for that it might help you.

In the meantime take notes of what you child says is being said to him by your ex's side. f this gets to a more serious level of your being alienated by your ex from your child, you will need to establish a pattern of such alienation.

amdublin

It sounds like there is a lot of emotion between you and your ex and it sounds to me like not creating the best environment for your child.

Could someone else do the drop off for you? And equally could someone do the drop off (to you) on the part of your ex?

There is a long road ahead and you both will need to come up with a lot of solutions and compromise so that your child is not stuck in the middle of it all and being affected by it.

Atamiri

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120581036#Comment_120581036

Thank you for your response. You're right, my ex is very hateful and aggressive towards me since the relationship broke down (in September 2022). She refused mediation, ignored all the attempts of my solicitor to contact her and was withholding access for months until the court hearing (in March).

I don't have any hard feelings, I'm only focusing on our son, I know the situation is bad for him but I'm doing my best.

I pick up our son from the crèche (ECCE, so only until the end of June) but unfortunately there's no one to drop him off for me.

[Deleted User]

Is there a way you could explain your situation to your employer and see if it would be possible to drop him off yourself and make up the work? There's often a flexibility from employers when they understand why. Is there anybody on her side whom you could explain what's happening and how the child is suffering? There might be somebody who, side or no side, could talk sense into her and give her a different strategy to punish you?

It might be worth contacting Treoir about this - https://www.treoir.ie/contact/.

In the initial period I phoned them and they gave very constructive advice regarding rights. There's nothing you can do to control her emotions so minimising all contact is the way to go, and put any necessary contact in writing via WhatsApp or whatever.

If she has refused mediation, etc, I would be pushing your legal team to finalise. It might be a good idea to phone/audio record your next interaction with your ex at handover and this could be useful to play to a judge as a sample of the tension which your child must witness. Sometimes court orders are necessary in order to put a bit of manners on people. They often/usually (always?) turn into tit-for-tat so courts become clogged up with them (another major reason why the waiting time for divorce needs to be reduced from two years).

Be legally minded at all times, as she is evidently out to destroy you.

Atamiri

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582391#Comment_120582391

Thanks a lot. Unfortunately there's no one on her side, she's from South America and has no family here - except for her mother who's part of the problem (she came to visit us in 2019 and simply stayed undocumented). I think her mother makes things much worse, my ex suffers from depression and anxiety since she was a child because her mother didn't let her father see her since she was a baby (she only met him when she was 25 or so). Now they wanted to do the same to me but luckily there's a court order regulating access since March. The worst thing is that they both threatened me many times with abducting our son to South America.

Atamiri

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582391#Comment_120582391

Just an update, she now reported me to Tusla. Does anyone see any logic in it?

Eddie B

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120604725#Comment_120604725

We've had a similar situation in the past, where my wife's ex got in with let's say a bad egg. She enticed him to do all sorts of vengeful stuff. When we got the phone call, the lady we spoke too, could already see, there was nothing behind it, after a short conversation. She could also tell by how he was putting in the complaint that he was simply out to get us. Thankfully, they could see right through him.

All I can suggest is for you to do everything you are supposed to do regarding your child, and to document everything from hear on in.

Document date and times, you pick up or drop off your child. Document anything your ex says or does which is negative towards yourself, or your right to see your child. Document and save, any abusive messages, you receive from your ex, and do NOT join in a tit for tat situation, no matter how much she gets under your skin. I know this will be difficult, but if you fight fire with fire, you will only get burned.

You really do have to fight clever in these situations. Make sure you do all you possibly can, for your child, and by law, you won't lose any of your rights to see the child. That, and your child's happiness, is the most important thing for you right now.

Atamiri

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120604834#Comment_120604834

Thank you. Yes, that’s what I’m doing, focus on my son and keep my solicitor in the loop (which in effect means documenting all the incidents). I don’t want to fight back (my solicitor suggested some actions but they were rather drastic, I prefer not to make the situation worse than it already is).

And yes, the lady from Tusla was very friendly, she talked to my son and there were no concerns. It’s sad that such false reports of abuse waste the time of social workers who should be helping the real victims.

[Deleted User]

If your ex is threatening abduction, it is very important that you raise this at the next family court hearing (and there will be more) or apply for a court hearing on the grounds that you have an issue that needs the "direction of the court".

You can request that possession of your son's passport be held by you, or alternatively your solicitor. This is not something I would leave to chance.

Atamiri

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120605722#Comment_120605722

Thanks a lot. Yes, she and her mother threatened me with that many times. And I mentioned that during the last court hearing. She actually told the judge that she intended to apply for possession of the passports but I haven’t received any summons yet.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120604725#Comment_120604725

Yes, of course there's impeccable logic. She's playing the gender card to get you removed from the family home. Game, set, and match. Don't keep your head in the sand here: she has declared war on you, and in the reality that is the Irish family law courts your gender makes you guilty until proven innocent. Naive people who have not gone through the Irish family law courts and who believe in the fantasy that is the just-world hypothesis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis) would have a more benign interpretation of what happens. Ignore them as you have to wise up very, very quickly to how fúcked you are as a man seeking equal rights to your child and family home. If you are a poor man, the situation is significantly bleaker. Poor men suffer a huge injustice far removed from the "dig outs" and free house which our self-declared "socialist" legislator Bertie Ahern got when he went through his own marital breakdown, a disconnect from reality which largely explains why our privileged legislators keep legislation which punishes poor men above all others. But your only hope is in fighting this, as often they trip themselves up with their lies if the case goes on long enough.

A bit of explanation. If she can get Tusla on her side she begins to remove you from the family home. That is the goal, and be very, very clear about that. Safety orders (which you both can get, while living in the same home), protection orders and, ultimately, the jackpot that is the barring order (differences explained: https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth-family-relationships/problems-in-marriages-and-other-relationships/barring-safety-and-protection-orders/#l80820) will follow as sure as night follows day.

In the barring order you're removed from the family home and a criminal case invariably commences. This is genius by the "poor women" as the criminal case must then be heard before your civil/family law case (divorce). You can be waiting years for the criminal case to happen, and all the while you as the man have been barred from the family home because of her mere allegation. Re-read that! While you're barred, she turns the kids against you - this is called parental alienation, but the Irish State-funded women's-superior-rights-to-control-the-family-home-and-children organisations deny parental alienation exists. It does, and that child who loves you can be turned against you once your rights to spend equal time with him have been stopped due to her false allegations. This happens again, and again and again. The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world. If she wins the child (yes, the child is only the weapon for them), she wins control of the family home. It is that savage, and this is not a rare case - this is the most common outcome once a woman makes a false allegation.

You're eliminated from the family home and she starts creating her new life in the family home you're paying for while you live in a bedsit or with your parents. She also tops this off by playing the victim card. It's galling, to say the least, to endure the incessant "poor me" victimhood for women when so many men face this reality. And it's all based on a false allegation, or series of false allegations, that you are a danger to your child. Once an allegation of abuse is fired at a man - termed the "silver bullet" - he is very much guilty until proven innocent. It is uniquely destructive, and there is absolutely no punishment for all the women who do this (family law proceedings are "in camera"/private so the names of these women are never revealed, which of course acts as a massive incentive to falsely accuse men of abuse if they can win the family home and control of the children as a result).

She has the power to destroy you with her false allegations. She knows it, and you should know this, too. You need to get all the support you can muster. At 7pm in Navan tonight, 17 May Men's Aid will be meeting. It will be full of men going through similar experiences, who have extensive experience of Tusla, their reports, their trustworthiness, and so much else. You will get recommendations for serious family law solicitors and barristers who deal with this all the time. You will get details of judgments and rulings that you will never get access to because of the Irish State's "in camera" rulings. You will find out how fathers have won full custody of their children after years of never being allowed to see their children while the criminal law process, and Tusla reports, progressed. But those years with their children are never coming back thanks to the sheer evil (in the truest meaning of that word) of false allegations.

Ring Men's Aid without delay and you will find a whole world of men who will open up to you and help you as much as they can: https://www.mensaid.ie/

GarfieldandPookyBear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120605722#Comment_120605722

Agree with Loueze here! That’s a very serious threat and should be mentioned. Keep a diary. Document everything! I mean everything! It may help you down the road. Speaking from experience here.

Atamiri

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120685285#Comment_120685285

Thanks you. Yes, I'm documenting everything (this was also recommended by my solicitor). I'd like to avoid any further court hearings but problems are piling up.

GarfieldandPookyBear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120685800#Comment_120685800

Avoiding further court visits is highly unlikely I’m afraid. I know how you feel, I’m now 6 years in to this nonsense. I actually like court orders now because it sets rules and boundaries and they have protected me immensely from being harassed constantly and I mean constantly! Ranting messages all through the night has meant he is now restricted to email only thanks to the courts. It has advantages, believe me! 👍😂

Atamiri

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120685940#Comment_120685940

I’m afraid you’re right. It makes me sad, all I want is for our son to be happy, he’s only four years old now and all this causes him a lot of distress.

GarfieldandPookyBear

Yes it’s very hard. When one parent just wants constant conflict, the child pays the price unfortunately. Hopefully things will get better for you all.