If being an unaligned country with a large army is no deterrent to Putin's ambitions is it time for ROI to join Nato?
No, I'm just saying that being NATO members didn't stop that.
There is actually very little you can do to stop this, just as there is not much you can do to stop assassinations and chemical warfare on your soil unless you are prepared to go to war with Russia. Which we and NATO are clearly not for these things.
Russian naval vessels are allowed in our EEZ and outside of keeping an eye on them there is nothing we can do about that and there is no scenario in which that will change no matter how much we invest in our defence forces.
I would like the discussion to be centred in the realities of what we actually can do. If I was asked in a referendum tomorrow about joining NATO I'd be tempted to say yes, but I don't think the arguments for it are in particularly good faith. Were we NATO members the Russians would dick around in our waters just as much as they already do.
First of all, the US has never refuelled fighter jets in Shannon. It's been troop transports exclusively.
Secondly, those troop transports have landed with the explicit permission of the state. And no adverse security events can be ascribed to that decision.
Thirdly, the Russian flotilla was not "a few hundred kms away from the Cliffs of Moher" - it was skirting our territorial waters.
You can cry paranoia all you want - you're cavelier about the security of the state - and it's no coincidence that you're one of the posters that has been a regular peddler of excuses for the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
The US along with 52 other countries have Also landed and fueled in Shannon including the Russians
U.S jets participating in an illegal war, which hundreds of thousands of civilians perished, stopping off in Shannon would surely constitute a bigger threat to the security of the state than any Russian federation vessel or aircraft coming close to our territory? It would of raised the threat level of an Islamist fundamentalist attack on our soil quite considerably as we have seen many attacks across Europe from western actions in the middle east.
I'll repeat, no US fighter jets have ever landed at Shannon. If Ireland ever experienced an Islamic attack and an organised group offered up the troop transports as a pretext for terrorism, you may have had a point to stand on one leg. But that's never happened, so your point fails.
You will be aware that many other countries with state permission have used Ireland as a refuelling point for military aircraft and naval ships (though never fighter jets) - including Russia, and including when they were conducting wartime operations in the Caucasus.
Rendition flights refueled in Shannon that had people on board who were forcibly removed from their countries and most likely brought to Guantanamo Bay to face torture. We basically colluded in rendition.
And no fighter jets as you claimed ,
Making it up as you go along
When these same ships passed through the Gibraltar strait, they were about 7km's from either coast.
And that's a legitimate transit dealt with under the laws of the sea, because ships can't exactly teleport past a maritime chokepoint. If they pointed the bow towards Spain and sailed towards it, it wouldn't be long until fighter jets would be scrambled from the joint Spanish/US airbase outside Seville, which is the exact reason they are there.
My point still stands. We still participated in an immoral and illegal war which was the worst war crime of the 21st century.
Doubt yous ever raised an eyebrow then. But I suppose with the massive Russia phobia sickness you suffer from its no surprise.
Ireland absolutely did not participate in the Iraq war. That's a load of cobblers. There is scant evidence that rendition flights went through Ireland as a matter of routine. I'm quite sure some did, and there may have been a degree of negligence from Ireland on this matter - and that is not to be condoned. But routine? Very little evidence for it.
I think the Russians have America comfortably superseded with the "worst war crime" tag of the 21st century. And that is of course with you even ignoring the war in the Congo and the completely indiscriminate aerial war Russia conducted for many years in Syria, which was leagues worse than anything the US did in Iraq or elsewhere.
You're claiming Russophobia, you don't even know or care half of what Russia got up to in Syria.
Are the international waters some hundreds of km's "off our coast" not a legitimate transit too?
But they weren't "hundreds of kms off our coast" were they? They were skirting out territorial waters probably no more than 25-30kms from our coast at points.
No we didn't,
Is it a legitimate transit?
Is it a legitimate transit if someone with a known record of violence goes kilometers out of their way to drive by your front door slowly several times? Of course not, they're seeking to intimidate you.
Use the old noggin eh? Whose side are you on? Ireland's security is a big game to you.
You don't know that they went out of their way.
Its a perfectly conceivable route if you were heading from the Med to Norwegian sea. Out of the Gib strait, right at Portugal and straight up north.
It's pretty much obvious they went out of their way ,
As I pointed out earlier,it's not as if our Island is in the middle of the med and they have to sail around us ,
But that's not the case
Take a look at a map Greencap. If they went due north from Portugal heading for the GIUK Gap, they would have been hundreds of kilometers away from our coast on the Western fringes of our EEZ. They were hugging our territorial waters.
It's late, and I'm going to bed, and I've heard enough sillyness for the day.
There are 3 options. UK will likely make life very difficult if you take the one that goes up by their nuclear sub base in west Scotland if you choose the middle route, so really there are 2 options.
2 options between your home and one of the busiest shipping lanes in the world.
Unless you're for some strange reason wholeheartedly set on going by the English channel then of course you're going to go pass the west of Ireland.
Jesus, get a map.
It's you who needs a map and a lesson in geography ,more spoofing
The Scottish nuclear submarine base is in Clyde, which is on our side of Scotland ie East
So why would Russia not be able to sail via the channel as they have done for decades
Greencap, the most direct fuel saving route that would take someone from the Med to the GIUK Gap does not go by the Irish coast. Instead of telling someone to look at a map when they don't need one, it's you that should really invest in one with big letters, perhaps to go on your wall or something.
Yeah Im looking at google earth genius.
If Russia DIDN'T often pass by our west coast, THAT would be the phenomenon.
A route by our west coast is one of only two efficient options. (a third option passing by a UK nuclear base).
Hope you get some rest. You need it.
The most direct of two routes. And they sail all year round decade in decade out.
So of course at some point they're going to take the second option which is relatively slightly less efficient.
Jesus. Tiny minds.
Captain Birdseye, take out a map and retrieve a ruler. Draw the most direct line you can from lets say Lisbon up to the GIUK Gap that will take your there most efficiently. You are probably 80 kilometers from the Irish coast at the nearest point, and bearing down on 200 at the farthest as they pass Ireland. They made a beeline for out territorial water border and skirted it for pretty much the whole journey.
Your credulity, of course, knows no limits. But actual measurements and kilometers don't care that you're a Tankie that makes excuses for Russia.
Sleep well.
LOL.
"our side of Scotland ie East"
Have a happy dream about basic probability Einstein.
You said west ,
Maps hey 🤣
"The Scottish nuclear submarine base is in Clyde, which is on our side of Scotland ie East".
- Gatling. (Circa 2023).
@Yurt2 and @antipathetic give it a rest, both of you. Put each other on ignore if you wish but stop dragging the thread off topic with constant sniping at each other
