It’s someone who got into something and then decided to just keep digging.
The funniest thing is the whole idea that leinster playing guys early is a sign of their elite development and then the three examples he gave are guys who barely played at all before year three in the academy.
Tong Butler (who I think was the first example of what’s wrong with Munster) is going into year three of Munster academy next year.
Where did I say I was focusing on minutes played?
You omitted the sub appearances, only posting minutes and starts.
Why? Because the Munster number was higher.
I’m over this. Munster have been backing young academy graduates all season, and are still getting grief about not backing their players.
Frankly, it’s utter bullsh*t.
If you include the numbers both teams have given to their current Academy classes (which should have been in the original dataset), the numbers are:
Munster: 159 total caps, 69 starts, 6,592 minutes
Leinster: 149 total caps, 86 starts, 7,026 minutes.
It’s pretty funny to me that now you want to focus on minutes played.
Whereas with the Tector vs Coughlan argument, you wanted to focus on appearances.
If we apply your Tector-appearance logic to the above I.e. include subs, it amounts to something like:
Munster: 137
Leinster: 114
Again, not being consistent.
Wow, Munster started less academy players in a year where they basically had to win every game because they kind of sucked for a lot of the year.
Surprising!!
Further correction to these stats - the Munster stats are including the friendly game played against SA A, but the Leinster stats are not including the Chile fixture they played this season.
Excluding both non-competitive games, the correct numbers are the following:
Munster: 62 games - 5,691 minutes, 13 players promoted
Leinster - 72 games - 5,653 minutes, 13 players promoted.
So this statement which sounds very strong:
So in the last 3 seasons Munster have promoted more players, who have more starts, more subs appearances and more minutes this season, and comparable average mins vs Leinster.
is actually:
Munster have promoted the same amount of players, who have less starts, and marginally more minutes this season.
And, as stated elsewhere, it kind of ignores the fact that Leinster have given 66 caps to 17 different current Academy players this season, totaling 2,501 minutes (same number for Munster's current academy is 8 players capped, 30 caps, 1,029 minutes).
As far as i can tell its zero for Josh and about 20 minutes for Keenan.
I said by the same stage. He’s a year two player and has played 68 minutes so far.
Which of those players had more than 68 minutes by the end of year two in the academy?
Also, i’m not sure on your Sheehan stats. He signed a senior deal in june 2020. According to allrugby all his appearances are after that. Wikipedia says the same thing.
He said "by the same stage" tho. Do you have the stats on what they had by end of year 2 academy?
Correction to this pointed out by FTD. 13 promoted players remain for both Leinster and Munster. They amount to:
Munster: 65 starts, 72 sub and 6078 mins total.
Leinster: 69 starts, 45 sub and 5646 mins total.
Alby Matthewson was signed by Munster for injury cover then his deal was extended, loads of fans (from other provinces) weren't happy with the original signing nor the extension. Yet, it's a Munster produced scrumhalf that's going to the RWC along with Murray (Munster produced) and JGP (NZ produced)
Whatever Alby did he certainly didn't prevent a Munster player coming through.
Yeah, except that's not true.
Even allowing for Keenan who is an unusual example of a particularly late developer, and who spent the bulk of his academy time away with the 7s, all three players got substantial minutes for Leinster while still in the academy.
Josh van der Flier played 6 games (starting 2) for 264 minutes while an academy player, Dan Sheehan played 10 games (starting 3) for 371 minutes while still in the academy. Even Keenan played 5 games (starting 3) while in the academy, for 215 minutes.
This makes no sense. Healy and Flannery are pro rugby players. Healy is international standard. The point is to develop pro rugby players. Not to point a gun to their head and make them stay.
All the players you gave as an example of as leinster development successes to me played less than coughlan by the same stage.
Let’s not talk about picking and choosing lol.
The issue with the Mathewson signing wasn't signing him in the first place, it was signing him as a 'medical joker' on a 4 month deal in Aug 2018 and then keeping him there till Dec 2019.
If Munster signed a short term SH cover to cover the RWC period (or out to Christmas) then that would make sense. Signing a NIQ scrum half for the season wouldn't IMO.
It seems they won't be signing anyone though as Denis Leamy said today the door is shut:
Is Coughlin highly rated in Munster,
I get that. I'm musing about Ngati! Certainly Frawley is capable and I assume that Leo was concerned cover wise as Frawley has a history of injuries.
They're exactly of the calibre I'm talking about being examples of good NIQ recruitment.
As was Alby Mathewson. But when a poster suggested Munster sign someone of his ilk, you were against it.
Again. Not being consistent.
(And I’ll DM you those players later on(.
Leinster's NIQs are all top quality players, plainly. They're exactly of the calibre I'm talking about being examples of good NIQ recruitment.
FWIW, so is RG Snyman, Duane Vermeulen, Rory Sutherland, Jeff Toomaga-Allen etc. From recent history, guys like Scott Fardy, Isa Nacewa, Damian de Allende, Marcell Coetzee, Ruan Pienaar etc all obviously are too.
Guys like Chris Cloete, Gerbrandt Grobler, Arno Botha, Jean Deysel, Gerhard van den Heever, Matt Faddes, Louis Ludik are not guys who are lifting quality levels or standards really, and are just blocking development of Irish players.
You tried to claim the minutes argument instead of apps as somehow justifying Coughlan getting greater development opportunities than Tector
I never said this.
You (and your sidekick Phog) keep suggesting Leinster only give development minutes in garbage time
Nor this.
The point I made for Tector vs Coughlan was that you claimed Tector was backed but Coughlan wasn't. Tector had 6 appearances, but 50 minutes. Coughlan had 2 appearances but 55 minutes.
It was a point to refute your argument, not argue the corollary.
More than happy too once you've replied about the Leinster NIQ players. Are they also "pointless"?
Calm down, Robin. ;)
You (and your sidekick Phog)
I told you I was out but DON'T CALL ME A SIDEKICK 😣
Would you mind listing the players you're counting in both of these scenarios as well, please?
I'm not.
You tried to claim the minutes argument instead of apps as somehow justifying Coughlan getting greater development opportunities than Tector, but I rightly pointed out that the bulk of Coughlan's minutes came in a scenario where injuries meant Patterson was shifted to wing, and Coughlan was introduced.
You (and your sidekick Phog) keep suggesting Leinster only give development minutes in garbage time, but Leinster have used current academy players (not graduates from the past 3 seasons) in 21 games this season, including all six interpros. John McKee and Rob Russell got the bulk of those appearances, but on multiple days they had a multitude of current academy players playing (Zebre - 4, Scarlets - 4, Cardiff - 8, Dragons - 5, Edinburgh - 5, Stormers - 5, Lions - 9 and Bulls - 12).
Just to be clear, I've no issue with Leinster's 3 NIQ players. They need them. In the same way I'd have no issue if Munster signed an NIQ backup 9.
That's being consistent.
I'm simply using Leinster's NIQ's to point out that FTD isn't.
I'd disagree with this in the sense that Leinster have extremely good depth behind Henshaw and Ringer. Frawley is very good and Turner has been great. Perhaps Ngati was picked up because of the injury profiles of Leinster's centers. Ngati has been brilliant, though. Jenkins is necessary. He is needed for size against bigger packs. Another good signing.
I would assume Ala'Alatoa was signed due to the tight head departures over the last few years. Leinster were very light at th. Clarkson hasn't shown much and Vakh is constantly injured.
The NIQ signings I think are pointless are the guys who aren't quality upgrades. In this scenario, it makes more sense to just back the academy players to see you through the pinch period.
Alalatoa isn't an upgrade on Furlong. Ngatai isn't an upgrade on Ringrose and Henshaw. Jenkins isn't an upgrade on James Ryan.
Those guys are all away with Ireland regularly, so an NIQ is required. But then so are Murray and Casey.
Yet when Munster fans suggest an NIQ 9, you're up in arms against it. But I've seen precisely zero criticism from you for Leinster's NIQ signings.
You're simply not being consistent.
I'm fixating on nothing.
I challenged a post of yours where you named the two players and gave two different approaches to how you calculate the respective provinces use of the players.
Since then I've seen you posted this:
I don't think I have been the one making noise about it.
So to reduce the noise about this I will give you the last word.
Yeah, except I specifically said in my post, I don't object to just the notion of recruiting NIQs, and would support the notion of signing a high quality NIQ front rower.
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