You'refixating on these two players, and the reasons why aren't clear to me.
The reasons why are because you're putting caveats against the minutes Coughlan has played in a way you're not for Tector and Prendergast.
i.e. you're not being consistent.
You're fixating on these two players, and the reasons why aren't clear to me.
Just on a straight side by side comparison, it's an entirely fair statement to say Leinster have worked to get more appearances and minutes into Charlie Tector than Munster have with Tony Butler (who I originally compared him to) and Ethan Coughlan. This is also despite the fact that Leinster have a multitude of options in the position, including a guy even younger than Tector who they've also gotten minutes into (2 x 80 min performances).
You cannot claim a scenario where a guy who has been in match squads 8 times this season (playing 7 times) isn't getting more opportunities to develop than a guy who hasn't made a single match squad all season (Butler) or a guy who has played twice.
Focusing on the score when Leinster put the player is a complete nonsense. Leinster win most of their games by high margins. Most of Leinster's replacements used in URC games come in in scenarios where the game is effectively decided already.
So it's not a big issue but:
Once again here, with a player injured, the proposal is to go and sign an "Alby Mathewson" type, rather than backing the two academy scrum halves...
and: Banging on about having the least number of NIQ players is a bit much
Banging on about having the least number of NIQ players is a bit much
and: ...now, Munster fans are clamouring again to sign another NIQ 10.
...now, Munster fans are clamouring again to sign another NIQ 10.
and: We'll have even fewer if NIQ players are added into the mix in front of them, at the very time when they should be getting trusted to step up and take more minutes.
We'll have even fewer if NIQ players are added into the mix in front of them, at the very time when they should be getting trusted to step up and take more minutes.
and: ...the immediate response from Munster fans on here is to call for an NIQ player, no suggestion that Butler or Oliver or Coughlan could step up.
...the immediate response from Munster fans on here is to call for an NIQ player, no suggestion that Butler or Oliver or Coughlan could step up.
But it's not a big issue.
Like I said, noise.
Let's leave it at that, FTD.
Where did I claim Tector played must win games?
I never said you did but you put an asterisk on why Munster played Coughlan while churning out stats and stats alone on Leinster using Tector.
Leinster's average winning margin in games won this season is 21 points. Based on your views here, none of Leinster's replacements ever get meaningful minutes.
Using the 21 points average and excluding the meaningless (for Leinster) tour of SA then Tector was only used once when they were ahead by less than 21 points.
This is what you said when "comparing" both provinces and how they use their academy
Charlie Tector has played 8 times for Leinster for 92 minutes. He was also an unusued sub on two other occasions. So he's been part of the match squad 10 times this season, as a Year 1 Academy player, in a position where Leinster are stacked with talent. He would have even more minutes, except Leinster opted to back an even younger Year 1 Academy player in Sam Prendergast for those two starts in SA.
Contrast this with Ethan Coughlan's two solitary appearances this season - a half an hour against an Ospreys team that were being pulverised (the week a lot of them thought they were on the verge of losing their jobs), and 25 minutes against Scarlets, when injury forced the move as the full back was hurt when Munster had already used their back replacement.
I don't think I have been the one making noise about it. You felt the need to create a new thread because it appears as though anything remotely resembling criticism of Munster is unacceptable in the Munster thread.
I honestly don't have a big issue with Munster signing more NIQ players.
For someone who has no big issue with it, you've made an awful lot of noise about it, and how Munster don't back their academy (which is patently false).
See this is the main fallacy that a lot of this has been built around, I honestly don't have a big issue with Munster signing more NIQ players.
I don't have a problem generally with any province signing NIQ players, when it's in situations of need or players of exceptional quality. I've spoken multiple times about how I would 100% see the logic in Munster signing a high quality (Malcolm Marx style) player at hooker for example, an area where Ireland are stacked, and Munster have a need.
I don't think there is a need though for multiple NIQs at half back. It seems the URC won't commence until post the group stages of the RWC, so it's not totally crazy to think a Year 3 Academy 9 and and a Year 2 Academy 9 could tide you over that period, especially as you'll still have Neil Cronin (unless he's leaving too). At 10 you'll likely have Joey Carbery and Tony Butler, with possibly another 10 coming into the Academy.
So if Munster have improved significantly in this area (and they have)…
AND they have the lowest number of NIQ players of all the provinces (which they do)…
..why do you still think it is such a big deal for them to sign another NIQ player??
It’s really, really not
My numbers differ slightly, but would broadly align. Think they're slightly skewed lower in the Leinster case by injuries suffered by Jamie Osborne, Tommy O'Brien and Joe McCarthy, with really only Tom Ahern the only Munster player who you feel would have played a fair bit more but for injury.
I have said multiple times throughout this thread (and the predecessor) that Munster have improved significantly in this regard of late. I don't think these stats are illustrative of Munster outperforming Leinster in this area. A key distinction you've overlooked here is the starting position of both sides, prior to the period you're assessing for. Leinster won multiple league titles on the bounce, won a European Cup in 2018 and lost finals in 2019 and 2022, and are bulk suppliers to an Irish squad that won Grand Slams in 2018 and 2023.
And yet still, they've integrated a broadly similar number of players as a Munster side who are trophy-less for well over a decade.
Christ on a bike, talk about misrepresenting facts and talking up your own guy 🙄
Tector was only trusted in games that were well and truly won by Leinster but somehow Coughlan's game-time is discounted because we were hammering Ospreys or an injury forced cap.
Here's how Leinster used Tector in all those tight games that were must win.
28/10/22 Scarlet - he got 9 mins but Leinster were ahead 28-5, maybe even 35-5 because I'm not sure was the PT awarded before Tector made the pitch.
2/12/22 Ulster - he got the one min cap
28/1/23 Cardiff - he got 15 mins when Leinster were ahead 31-0
18/2/23 Dragons - he got 10 mins when Leinster were ahead 31-14
4/3/23 Edinburgh - he got 11 mins when Leinster were ahead 47-20
and then he got game-time in the tour to SA which Leinster weren't really bothered about.
In the last 3 seasons, Munster have:
In the last 3 seasons, Leinster have:
So in the last 3 seasons Munster have promoted more players, who have more starts, more subs appearances and more minutes this season, and comparable average mins vs Leinster.
But somehow Leinster back their academy, and Munster don't?
You're talking arrant nonsense.
Munster promoted 9 guys from the academy at the start of last season. Any comment on that?
And by the end of this season, 4 out of 9 will be gone (French x2, Healy & Flannery); I don't think it's as meaningful a stat as you seem to think it is. You're banging on elsewhere about "when was the last time a province promoted so many players", but it's fairly meaningless when almost half of them are gone within a season (while barely ever playing in all bar Healy's case).
Crowley, Kendellen and Buckley are all guys who would still be in the academy this season but were promoted early. They have nearly 2000 minutes this season. Any comment on that?
Yeah, clearly it's a very good class, and tbf Munster have backed this group and given them minutes. But the stats did highlight this was an anomalous group over the period, and one of the only ones where the median caps is over 10.
You suggested Leinster back Tector but Munster don’t back Couglan. Tector had 50 mins over 6 appearances. Couglan had 55 mins over 2 appearances. Any comment on that?
You're trying to seize upon the one player which you think helps your example, and in this instance you use minutes instead of caps because it helps your scenario.
Charlie Tector has played 7 times for Leinster for 92 minutes. He was also an unusued sub on anoter occasion. So he's been part of the match squad 8 times this season, as a Year 1 Academy player, in a position where Leinster are stacked with talent. He would have even more minutes, except Leinster opted to back an even younger Year 1 Academy player in Sam Prendergast for those two starts in SA.
I really don't think this example points to Munster having invested more time, effort or development in Ethan Coughlan than Leinster have into Charlie Tector.
Bottom line here, in this case we (Munster) are sending two home produced SHs to the RWC our 3rd choice (signed from Leinster) is injured.
Has any province ever suffered the loss of 3 scrumhalves at the same time and managed without some temporary cover
For one of the rugby cups I remember Leinster resigning Cillian Willis from Connacht or Ulster when they lost both their (products of other clubs) two SHs to a RWC
That’s a lot of stats about the last 10 seasons. But absolutely nobody is disputing whats happened over 10 years.
Posters are disputing you saying Munster still, currently don’t back their academy. That’s patently. Simply. Not. True. Base on what we’ve seen over th last 2-3 seasons.
For example, and I’m repeating myself:
Look forward to your response.
Jesus! I'm dizzy trying to keep up! Lol
I didn’t say coaching and development wasn’t good in Leinster. I’m saying the obvious reason why players would play earlier is that they have near pro level schools providing much more developed players. If one or two schools produce that many players, then that should be the starting point of the logic chain. It would be different if these guys played early and really showed hard growing pains. Often they look quite good right away. That suggests to me that they are playing because they are ready.
I don’t think any of those examples really support your argument. Dan Sheehan didn’t play a game at Leinster before his first senior contract. If Keenan did three years in the academy, he did 17 minutes total before his third year. It was trickier with JdF but it looks like he got all of his academy minutes in his last year of the academy which i believe was his third year.
All three of those had the type of development path that you criticize other provinces for. I personally think that’s basically the standard route except for freaks/some graduates of professional level secondary schools.
I've no interest in going round and round on this with you.
You're asking "who was calling for NIQ signings" and I highlight a number of fans calling for it. Clearly I was referring to fans on Boards here, as opposed to Graham Rowntree out calling for the signings ffs.
You keep highlighting this point around Leinster having "low leverage" minutes, but Leinster intersperse their young players into their squads all through the year, not just in garbage time games at the end. At any point this season Leinster would have given substantially more minutes to academy players than peers.
The production line in Leinster is unquestionably better than the other three Irish provinces, and has been for 10 years + now, but in addition to that, I think the coaching and development has been considerably better in Leinster too.
There are countless examples of players who have visibly improved to a significant degree after they join the Leinster system - look at guys like Josh van der Flier, Hugo Keenan or Dan Sheehan - all relatively unheralded underage prospects who absolutely nobody would have seen as being amongst the very best players on the planet within a couple of years.
To take your viewpoint on this as factual would reduce the role of Head Coach / Director of Rugby down to nothing more than simply identifying the best players, picking them and setting out the tactics. There's a lot more to it than that.
Are you being serious? You are saying there is something wrong with a provincial system based on people on boards.ie saying they would like to see an NIQ 10?
What’s happening dude. You are flailing.
The fact is they have two not counting Healy and as of now will have two next year.
The idea that Leinster players are better because they get playing time earlier is obviously flawed. Its more likely they get playing time earlier because they are better players or they come in to the academy more developed.
Mix in the fact that Leinster have many more low leverage minutes than other provinces available… and it explains itself.
If you stuck any other provincial system on top of the dublin school system (especially blackrock and st michaels who have 7/8 (!) of the recent academy intake) you would see similar numbers. Not identical but much more similar.
Leinster generally are not playing guys who are not ready to play. There is a reason why they can play their C team and be generally competitive with bad teams.
Yeah, I think this is a fair comment on balance.
I looked at the stats comparing the two academies over the past 10 seasons (would do similar for Ulster or Connacht if they had the data clearly located somewhere), and while Leinster are far more productive overall, there is evidence that Munster have been more productive and giving more opportunities in recent seasons.
If you exclude this year's intake (2022/23) for both teams, then Munster have had 71 players in their academy from 2012/13-2021/22, and Leinster have had 75 over the same period. 29 of those 71 are still with Munster, and 41 of Leinster's intake are still with Leinster.
Leinster's academy graduates played 2,737 times for Leinster, versus 1,397 for Munster's players. Leinster's academy garnered 501 Irish caps versus 23 for Munster.
12 of Leinster's 75 players never played a senior game for Leinster (and some interesting names in there: Gavin Thornbury, Billy Dardis, Harrison Brewer) + some unfortunate injury retirements (Charlie Ryan, Mark Hernan).
26 of Munster's 71 players never played a senior game for Munster.
39 of Munster's 71 played 5 or fewer games, 19 of Munster's players played 20 or more games.
24 of Leinster's 75 played 5 or fewer games, 38 of Leinster's 75 played 20 games or more.
2 Munster players made over 100 appearances, 9 Leinster players made over 100 appearances.
8 Munster players were internationally capped. 24 Leinster players were capped internationally.
Comparing class by class every season, every single year the Leinster group garnered more Leinster caps than their equivalent class did Munster caps.
The international caps are higher for Leinster in every year bar 2013/14 (3 for Munster to 1 for Leinster) and 2020/21 (3 for Munster to 1 for Leinster), and the median number of club appearances is higher for Leinster in every year except 2020/21.
Munster have only 2 years where the median number of caps by their academy players is in double digits - (52 caps is the median for the class of 2016/17 which contained Gavin Coombes, Shane Daly, Calvin Nash, Fineen Wycherley) and (34 is the median for the class of 2020/21 (Crowley, Buckley, Kendellen). Munster have 4 years where the median number of caps is zero. The average median (if that makes sense) number of caps in any given academy class for Munster is 9.6 (skewed highly by the class of 2016/17).
Leinster by contrast have only 2 years where the median number of caps is in single digits - 2015/16 (5 cap median) and 2021/22 (3 caps median). Just like Munster's most productive ever class was 2016/17, so was Leinster's. That group gained 548 total caps (72 median) plus 182 international caps (this was Connors, Deegan, Keenan, J O'Brien, Porter, Ryan, Larmour). The average median (once again, hope this makes sense) number of caps in any given academy class for Leinster is 30.
The overall median number of caps for Munster over the period is 3, whereas for Leinster it is 20.
EDIT: For the sake of completeness, I excluded this year's class because you wouldn't expect these guys to have international caps etc yet, but had I included them, it would have been a continuation of the same trend - Leinster have awarded 19 caps to their current Year 1 class, versus 4 for Munster).
If you look at the last three intakes (so including class of 2022/23), Munster's 17 players have played for Munster 133 times, versus Leinster's 23 players who've played for Leinster 164 times, so some indication of a greater willingness to back youth in recent times. Contrast this with the period 2012-15 where 22 Munster players across three intakes earned 551 caps, while the 22 Leinster recruits earned 1,358 caps.
A lot of numbers in that, and denser than I'd hoped, but hopefully makes sense.
This is correct by timing but you did in fact mention buying in cover, then you went polar opposites for some reason.
Anyone that followed rugby will know why Munster brought in Alby Mathewson and we're not a hundred miles from a similar situation again. We're sending 2 homegrown scrumhalves to the RWC, our 3rd choice just picked up a long term injury so we may need to consider cover.
Our pathways for scrumhalf has been more than decent compared to other provinces, of the 12 that been in RWC squads since 1999 seven have started rugby at Munster.
Agree with this. Lots of players fast tracked. Kendellan, Casey, Hodnett all got playing time. Quinn has played too!
That’s a completely fair comment.
I just don’t see how anyone can hold the opinion that Munster still don’t back their academy, based on what we’ve seen over the past 2-3 seasons.
Munster's academy production issues aren't due to what they're doing now - which is good. Its from what they did 3-8 years ago. They almost had an entire generation of non-production after Murray/POM/Earls
We have no idea how good guys like Tony Butler, Ethan Coughlan, Jack Oliver etc are, because of the scarcity of opportunities they get.
You give Tector as an example of a guy Leinster back because, at the time, he had 6 appearances.
This amounted to 50 minutes.
You give Coughlan as an example of a guy Munster don’t back. He has 2 appearances.
This amounts to 55 minutes.
Can you see the issue there?
Just because some posters call for NIQ signings doesn’t mean Munster don’t back their academy.
I’m pretty sure Crowley, Buckley and Kendellen are 3 guys who would still be in the academy this season but for being promoted early.
Between them they have nearly 2000 minutes.
That’s pretty much the definition of backing your academy.
Source on them calling for an NIQ player?
The post directly above this one, was the first one where the very first instinct is to fill a gap with a signing rather than look to the academy.
Yeah, it's almost like I made something up 🙄:
and the two pages of posts following that, which are making the argument for a NIQ 10.
There are more going further back on calls for NIQ tight heads and hookers as well.
So maybe do some actual reading before accusing me of making something up.
I think you'll find I didn't.
The post you're quoting was from me at 2:18pm:
Whereas, you'd already posted this at 2:13pm, which is the first mention of recruiting to cover this absence.
Multiple shoulder injuries.
Didn't realise Hernan had been injury enforced. Had presumed he just wasn't up to standard.
Disregard.
When or who was the last scrum half to regularly play for Ireland that was home produced by Leinster.
I think we've had Stringer, Redden, TOL, Murray and now Casey. Throw in Boss & JGP and that's basically our scrumhalfs in the last 22 years
If pathways to professional rugby was as easy as giving game time no province would need NIQ or project players.
![Photo of [Deleted User]](https://wd.vanillicon.com/v2/ddb508ca3281bbcc5001177dc26332a1.svg)
![Photo of [Deleted User]](https://we.vanillicon.com/v2/e7ef1946e92d84157dc464ad6c3ddaab.svg)
![Photo of [Deleted User]](https://w8.vanillicon.com/v2/8a022abb175d445f2b5b8a1c545f3d3f.svg)
