Following on from here
New Munster chat thread folks. warning deserved there. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=109477571#post109477571
Personally, I think Scannell is well able for outhalf. He's worn the #22 jumper 24 times for Munster and twice for Ireland, including coming on at outhalf for a good chunk of a game during the 2017 Summer tour, if memory serves.
Haven’t had it yet but really want to try the coffee stout he did with Treaty Brewing.
That coffee is mighty tack.
50 unread posts... 'team must be announced', I naively thought...
Earls kind of looks like Donncha Ryan in that picture.
Yeah, this is true.
It's also known that the clubs play games with the classification of player's positions, to justify an argument for NIQs in positions. Munster did this when classifying Jason Jenkins as a back row, and it wouldn't be remotely surprising if Leinster were classifying Ciaran Frawley as an out half for those purposes to strengthen the justification for bringing in Charlie Ngatai as an NIQ 12.
But for injury he'd have a load more caps
I’d imagine those positions are coming from the players rather than the club, because I would imagine Lowry would rather play fly-half than fullback etc.
Angus Curtis is down as a fly-half, but I think he is viewed as a 12 only by the coaches for instance.
If you go onto the URC Top 100 ranking list (it actually has 500 players) you can export the current players and the positions there are more accurate, it has Lowry as a fullback for instance. It also doesn’t seem to show players that haven’t played much, I think Frawley is missing for example if I’m not mistaken.
Once again, I'm not including anyone "in my figures". I'm using the clubs own classifications of their players, now, if you have an issue with that you're talking to the wrong people.
And therein lies the difference… Munster won’t want to have to start Scannell at 10 even in URC games.
Would depend on the context - for a couple of URC level games against weaker teams, then they probably wouldn't.
For European knock outs, I'd say they absolutely would.
He's started as many games at full back this season as he has at out half in the last 3 years.
You'd be pretty certain that Leinster wouldn't be overly worried if they had to start Frawley at 10 for a few weeks, but Munster would if they had to start Scannell there. Not very comparable
I've just noticed on it as well, Michael Lowry is listed as an out half (and included in your 6 OHs number for Ulster.
Does that make sense?
Or could we apply common sense and say that in reality, the guy who has played 18 of 18 games this season at full back, 21/22 games last season at full back, and 18/22 games the season before that at full back is actually a full back?
Use whatever you like, I've used and linked the figures supplied by the clubs.
As I say if you have an issue take it up with them but you're wasting your time here trying to change them.
Yeah, heaven forbid we actually use our own common sense and critique those numbers to see if they make sense.
I went to the URC site and counted the players that their clubs have listed as Outhalf.
Munster
Leinster
If you or FtD have an issue with those figures take it up with the respective clubs
Leinster don’t have 6 or if they do, Munster have 5.
…while Sam Prendergast has more minutes for Leinster than Butler has for Munster.
Timing is everything…
Injuries are a risk for all players. It's not a differentiator either.
3 OH options (with potentially another player to be added to the Academy) is sufficient depth. The situation this year, with 3 OHs at a roughly similar stage of development and ability in Carbery, Crowley and Healy is more of an anomaly than the norm.
What Munster should be asking themselves is why Tony Butler has only made 1 appearance total - off the bench against Wasps when two thirds of the team had COVID, in the past 2 seasons. Charlie Tector (less than 1 month older) has played 6 times for Leinster over the same period, while Sam Prendergast has more minutes for Leinster than Butler has for Munster.
It is different tho.
Munster have 2 10’s who are further up Ireland depth chart and injury factors you’ve mentioned apply to them too.
Yeah. Luckily for munster they have Carbery, who has had zero injuries in the last few years.
Their situation isn't different to the other provinces either.
You're choosing to focus on the Irish squad angle to it, but there are other factors than can have players absent too, such as injury. Billy Burns and Jack Carty have both missed a fair bit of time over recent seasons through injury. Injuries to either of them leaves them in a situation where they're relying on David Hawkshaw or Jake Flannery to play meaningful minutes, with the next in line for Connacht after that Cathal Forde (a centre who can cover 10) and Harry West (a Year 1 Academy player), and for Ulster Jake Flannery, Angus Curtis (centre who can cover 10) and Academy player James Humphreys.
It's not a radically different scenario whatever way you spin it.
But I'm saying Ciaran Frawley is not credibly viewed as a 10 option for Leinster either.
At a minimum, he’s viewed as a centre who can adequately cover 10 when required. He wouldn’t have started a game there this season, with Ross Byrne on his he bench, if he wasn’t.
You can’t remotely say the same thing about Rory Scannell over his Munster career. The statistics bear this out; that you find them tiresome doesn’t change them.
So, next season, Leinster will only have 2 senior OHs, the Byrne brothers, and 2 Academy OHs.
Leinster with have 2 senior OHs, a centre who can adequately cover 10 and 2 academy OHs.
As it stands, Munster will have 2 senior OHs and 1 academy OH.
The two Leinster OHs are as likely as the two Munster OHs to be in the Irish squad as well.
Agreed, but you weren’t just drawing comparisons to Leinster. You specifically said the following, when it’s not the case:
..their situation isn't different to the other provinces.
Your issue should be with Leinster for how they list their players not with the poster that uses that list.
Once again - you're using statistics to paint a somewhat misleading picture, and it's beyond tiresome at this stage.
Frawley only has 35 starts, so 10 sounds like a lot, until you break it down and realise 8 of those starts came prior to 2020. Saying the "most recent of which was this season", when 1 start was this season.
And, fwiw, Scannell started twice at 10 for Munster, once against Dragons in 2015/16 and once against Cardiff in 2014/15.
I'll make the same point I've made now though on about 5 prior occasions - I'm not arguing Rory Scannell is a 10 option for Munster. But I'm saying Ciaran Frawley is not credibly viewed as a 10 option for Leinster either. There is no other way to dress this up - he's started 2 games there in 3 seasons.
So, if someone is going to list out options for teams at 10 next season, the fair and consistent thing to do would be to take the same approach, and exclude both of them.
Munster will have 2 senior OHs, and 1 Academy OH (though they haven't yet announced their academy intake for next year, and it very well could include Dylan Hicks.
Frawley has started 28% of his starts for Leinster at 10. The most recent of which was this season.
Scannell has started 0.75% of his starts for Munster at 10. The most, nay, only one of which was in 2015.
It’s pretty clear who is seen as more adequately able to cover 10. It’s not even close.
He started versus the Maori because there was no other option after Harry Byrne got hurt - he was named as a centre on the Irish Rugby release for that tour.
After he went relatively well there, clearly Andy Farrell and Co decided to take a closer look at him at 10, and intended to give him minutes at 10 on the EI Tour, but he got hurt against Benetton.
He's started at 10 for Leinster twice in the past 3 seasons - while he came through as a young 10, clearly Lancaster and Cullen haven't ever really seen him as one.
Once again - I'm not the one here trying to claim Rory Scannell is a 10, I'm just saying it's fairly clear Leinster don't really see Ciaran Frawley as one either.
I’ve had a look.
Frawley has 35 starts for Leinster. 10 of them are from 10. Most of those earlier in his career, but he still had a start at 10 this season, prior to the EI tour (a large part of the focus for which seemed to be to try get more gametime into him at 10). He’s also started games at 10 vs the Māori too.
Scannell, by contrast, has 134 starts for Munster and has started at 10 once. One solitary start back in 2015.
As I said, Scannell is a break-glass option. There’s really no equivalence here.
No, but my point was, it's not realistic to classify either as a 10, and it's disingenuous to include Frawley and not Scannell.
I don't know Scannell's numbers, but I think Frawley has started 2 games at 10 in the past 3 seasons; while starting more games at 15, and over 22 games at 12.
I doubt Scannell has started at 10 for Munster in the same time period, but don't have the stats to hand beyond this season.
Neither province clearly see those players as 10s it would appear, and the actual gametime speaks to this more than anything else. For comparison, Leinster have listed Ryan Baird as a lock on their website too, but he's started there once this season while starting 9 times at blindside.
What is ironic here is that when Andy Farrell turned to Frawley as a 10 option (after Harry Byrne got hurt in NZ), it was predominantly Munster fans making the exact point I'm now making, that he has barely played any rugby at 10 in years, and isn't seen by Leinster as a 10. It can't be both ways.
No disagreement there; but generally NIQ’s are sanctioned with the Ireland context in mind. Which seems pretty reasonable.
There’s an obvious reason Leinster were allowed sign Ngatai, for example.
In that regard, saying “all the provinces have 2 senior 10’s next season” isn’t really telling the full picture.
Crowley and Carbery may not be starters post-Sexton. But they’re definitely further up the depth chart than the Connacht and Ulster equivalents.
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