Old thread seems to be permanently locked. It will be interesting if anything can come of this at last.
Threadbanned Posters:
Probably the most important missing data point but, yeah, the Gardai in Bandon ploughed on regardless.
Sophie spoke to her husband by phone at 11 pm and was found dead at 10 am the following morning. That 11 hour window leaves open all kinds of scenarios for the investigation. Any trained observer should have been able to narrow that window i.e. rigor mortis begins to set in about 2 hours after death, affecting first the small muscles (notably the face) and gradually spreading to the larger muscles (e.g. limbs) until the whole body is stiff after 6 - 8 hours. Then the body stays stiff for another 12 hours before rigor mortis disappears ie 20 - 24 hours after death.
If the Gardai had observed the process of rigor mortis setting in and leaving the body, they should have been able to narrow the 11 hour window down to a couple of hours which would have eliminated a number of possible lines of enquiry (including e.g. Ian Bailey, if the murder was before 2am)
After all these years and court appearances (and murder conviction in France!), the Gardai have never given any indication regarding the actual time of death. My guess is that when the State Pathologist arrived (long after rigor mortis left the body), he would have asked the Gardai for their observations of the body and he just got slack-jawed bewilderment from Gardai who had never dealt with a murder before and who just left her body lying where they found it.
100% agree with you. Dr Harbison repeatedly highlighted the need for those resources yet they were not forthcoming and weren’t put in place I think for some years after his retirement…
Given the body was out in the open, even with Harbinson getting there sooner it may have been difficult to establish time of death to a narrower range
But how would that have changed the course of the inquiry?
A lot better estimate of the time of death
This Times article puts it a bit different;
Arriving 26 hours after the body was found puts it at noon on Tues, yet he began the examination in Cork hospital at 2pm! It would have taken the best part of 2 hours to travel to Cork, leaving little time at the scene.
I don’t know what time on Mon he was notified of the murder, but if it was near midday there would not be much daylight left by the time he got to Cork. The forensics team came from Dublin on Monday and didn’t arrive in Schull until 9 or 10 pm. Harbison would not have been able to do much at the scene after dark The Gardai had overruled the decision to move the body to Cork hospital. If the body had gone to Cork he may well have travelled on Mon. He made the decision any sensible person would make in the circumstances. Harbison’s delay in getting to the scene had nothing to do the failure of the investigation. What would have been different had he examined the scene and body on Mon night?
I think it's unfair all the flak that Dr. Harbison got. It's unrealistic to expect someone to be on call 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Yes, I fully acknowledge that the body being left exposed for so long reduced the likelihood of getting good DNA evidence etc, but everyone is entitled to a day off. It's not realistic to expect someone to be on call all year and not have days off where they can 'let their hair down'.
It's the State's fault that they didn't have enough cover to account for his days off, illnesses etc.
I read it in his obituary in the Independent - a helicopter would have been available for transporting the State Pathologist to a crime scene in some cases where for example access by road may not be available or for reasons of time etc., but in this case he appears to have been taken to the scene via Garda car: https://m.independent.ie/news/obituary-dr-john-harbison-39881768.html
“By helicopter”? Where did you see that?
He didn’t even have a driver.
Did he ever use a helicopter?
The date of Sophie’s murder was Dr Harbison's birthday (23 December) and he wasn't able to travel to the murder scene that day; the following day, for some unexplained reason, he went by Garda car rather than helicopter, arriving 26 hours after the discovery of the body.
He had just driven from Dublin that morning, at least a 5 hour journey then. He would had to have left before 5am.
He was meticulous in his work, so I would be doubtful as well.
There is a claim on the People's Republic of Cork site that Harbison was drunk when he arrived in Cork having been to a party. One said "he had to be put to bed".
I have never heard that before and would be doubtful.
Down by this gate here;
Over to the left you can see the other gate to the lane with the blood indicators still on it. Photos take before forensics took the gate.
It was twenty five feet away [from the body] in a small field in front of the house and six foot from the wall of a pump house.Harbison noted a blood drop on a small stone which was embedded in the soil
Sorry thought it was up in front of house. I still think she was attacked at the house and ran. Probably the way to Alfie's was blocked
A stone, I don’t how big or small ,
I believe it was taken by forensics
A stone or a heavy block?
The blood was found on a stone at the bottom of Sophie's lawn about a yard in from the gate that led in from the lane, not the gate with the blood on it.
My thinking is the initial confrontation started there, whoever it was may have come into Sophie’s lawn through that gate. It was wide open on the morning of the murder which was unusual as Sophie wanted the gates kept closed.
Was it put there afterwards as a distraction?
If she walked why was blood found on the way down? It was in front of the house or maybe on the grass I cannot remember exactly.
Bailey is gas though
He claimed he has some relevant information for the cold case review
I think that's the most realistic
Bailey fancied himself as an artist
But didn't he say he didn't recall meeting her ever
It is just a guess and a speculation, irrespective of being behind a keyboard or not.
She was either walking somebody to the gates, and if she was running for her life screaming then Alfie and Shirley were not telling the truth. It's hard to believe they didn't hear anything if there was screaming.
If she ran for her life she would have run towards Alfie's and Shirley's. She may not have liked them, but at least she would have had the possibility of witnesses. This in mind that she didn't like Alfie and Shirley, but it would have been better than nothing, in case of running for your life.
Easy to say decades later from behind a keyboard.
When you are running for your life you are running for your life, decisions on which way to run are not always available and obvious when being chased.
I don't think she ran at all. She walked, I believe. The destination were the gates and maybe somebody's car parked there? Either strangulation or the cavity block, she didn't expect it or didn't see what was coming. Somebody she knew or met briefly before or somebody she trusted.
I know if an attacker was chasing me at that house I would scream my lungs out and run towards the neighbours house. In running towards the neighbours house I would hope scare off the attacker. It puzzles me why she didnt run towards Alfies. There was no chance of running towards any form of help or safety by running towards the gate.
However I know she may not have been thinking straight and just ran in what ever direction she could.
She may not have screamed or exclaimed loudly at any stage during the physical attack which killed her or during whatever transpired at the house beforehand. If she was running for her life down the driveway the killer probably first stunned her into submission with a blow from behind before the final onslaught.
She knew trying to rouse Shirley and Alfie from their slumber would be futile and she would just be running into a trap by heading for their door.
Why do you ask? I only know what I've read in those postings and the link.
“Is the pub in question in Cahirsiveen or in Schull?”
It’s in the link you posted yourself above. And where did you get the story about the man in Cahersiveen wearing a beret?
This is the problem with threads like this, stuff gets totally mixed up and people jump to all sorts of conclusions.
A man with a beret may or may not have been seen in Schull at the time of the murder.
The now dead publican that claimed to have seen him since said it may have been hair rather than a beret and the man may have been Bailey.
A French/Mexican man with a scratch on his face was reported to Gardai in Cahirsiveen by a barman the night after the murder.
The Gardai in Cahirsiveen talked to him and determined he borrowed the car from a woman in Cork.
Who knows what they found in their follow up on this, but it's far enough away and Cork is big enough a place for it to not be in anyway connected to the murder.
Could all be unrelated to the murder.
A man with a scratch on the face and a black beret in a pub in Co Kerry? Possibly also driving a car traceable to a woman in Cork.
But at least the police should be able to get the name of this man and find out whether he's French or Mexican.
Is the pub in question in Cahirsiveen or in Schull?
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