I was only referring to knowledge of the event. I was not suggesting he had any direct involvement in the death of the baby.
He probably had the information to spare the Hayes family what they went through
It's quite clear reading between the lines there that you have formed an opinion on what happened, and who was involved. Plausible. But bear in mind that it's damned unlikely someone walked to the graveyard with a sledgehammer over their shoulder, if it even was a sledgehammer..... You could carry one a long distance in a car...
And as regards the tide bringing the corpse "back" in it may not have entered the water at that spot to come back there.
When the papers reach a dead end on this, I've no doubt that stories will emerge, and be published with confidence, safe in the knowledge that you can't libel the dead.
But the person who damaged the grave might be some unconnected nutter?
I personally never assumed it was a family member
I don't get the "probable" on this theory at all.
Statistically, it's far more likely that it was post-partum infanticide linked with psychosis.
We know who the parents are for certain now, and the brother wasn't one of them.
It's certainly a possibility he assisted in the disposal of the poor child's body to help cover up the incident, but we have nothing to say it's "probable" he killed the child.
"They lived with the lie."
Tormented enough by the lie to desecrate the grave and take a sledgehammer to the gravestone?
A hell of a risk to take if it's the case, maybe didn't have too far to go carrying the sledgehammer?
If only the tide hadn't brought the child's body up onto the beach! If only 'twas done differently! 35 odd years of that would drive you to drink.
Maybe they don't. I only came here to suggest that people evaluate their theories in light of known or extremely likely facts. Any theory that starts with a maybe, needs the maybe proven first, or it's a castle built on sand. For me the simplest explanation fits the facts best. The more people that know something the harder it is to keep it secret. I think very few people knew. Possibly as few as two, unlikely more than 4 in my opinion.
Maybe her sisters know the truth?
Sure the nuns probably thought you could "catch the pregnant" from staying too long in the same room as her...
I went to school in the early 90's with a girl who successfully concealed her pregnancy right up until 7.5 months. Most of her year knew she was pregnant months before but nobody said a word to any adult.
There was lots of finger pointing between her parents and the nuns at the school as to who should have spotted it when it was eventually spotted. She was the first pregnant girl that was allowed to keep attending the school for classes. Previous pregnant students had to study at home for fear that we'd all see a pregnant teen and would all want a baby.
And probably died with the truth.
While it can obviously be hard to conceal a pregnancy at home it's not impossible. Knew someone whose daughter arrived into her bedroom Christmas Eve and said I'm having a baby as in right now! They never suspected a thing and baby was born full term same night.
I'd say very probable as opposed to possible.
They lived with the lie.
Possible. But only one. And not necessarily serving in the district at the time . Only my opinion.
" Pregnancies of this sort were routinely concealed from family and medical professionals alike."
A case I'm aware of where a young woman, early 20's, put on a bit of weight and was sent away to "stay with an aunt" for 6 months.
She gave birth to a child who was taken away " to be cared for" 2 days later she was told her baby died. Her daddy came to pick her up.
She went back to work and life went on, she never married or had any more children. It was never mentioned again.
Until she died in her in her 60's. She was outlived by her 2 older sisters who it turned out knew about her 'sin' almost from day one.
...........
A 17 year old concealing her pregnancy from everyone while staying at home is hard to believe.
Was she living at home? Was she still at school ? Did she drop out of school? Did her friends wonder about her?
She had an older brother, was he living at home? Other siblings, sisters? were they older than her? Were they living at home?
In 1984, especially after charges against Joanne Hayes were dropped, people would have begun to wonder.
This was huge news, nationally and internationally and gossip and rumours would have been rife.
Or maybe Baby John's mother was sent away to "stay with a relative" for 6 months and came back with unwanted baggage?
Do you think a serving member of the Gardai, at that time, knew?
My honest opinion?? At most 4 people knew. The couple and maybe one or two family members. Possible only 2 people knew. Probably only 3.
Everyone in Kerry knows who the couple are now.
I don't and I'm still not bothered finding out until I hear something official.
I wondered the same. Maybe the thoughts of the corpse buried in the garden was going to be too much of a daily reminder.
They probably thought throwing it in the sea would wash the problem away.
Ironically it washed up and became an issue for an entirely different family.
Thank you. As I said earlier in the thread, I'm from 60 miles away in Kerry and I'm sure as hell not asking anyone I know from Cahersiveen about it.
The family name is easy to figure out from Google search, and easy to guess which town the couple are currently living in.
Straight question: Do you think there was any cover up apart from within the family which there obviously was?
Why didnt whoever is responsible for the death of baby John bury him on their land where he would never have been found ?
Joanne and her family and friends and probably a huge crowd supporting them must want so bad to March to this couples house and beat down the door and demand answers
He is not. And if you had known him, you would know that what you are suggesting is impossible. Don't overthink or overcomplicate the issue.
Speculation that a whole community of people including gardai, medical professionals and their partners could all participate in a cover up given the attention this case got is silly and demonstrates no understanding or knowledge of a place like Cahersiveen then or now.
The only possible cover-up and what I think is most likely is that a young Guard who's late father was a very much respected member of the organization, along with his family were protected by the local guards under the direction of their Sargent.
They either kept information from the heavy gang and threw them off the scent, OR with the collusion of higher up officers, some of the investigators were also involved.
It would be interesting to know who the local Sargent was at the time, his relationship or knowledge of that family including the deceased father particularly. It would be also interesting to know whether that man is alive or not today.
By definition if the father did it, of course it wasn't postpartum psychosis and he should cop a murder charge if there's evidence of it.
Is it credible he killed the child in cold blood or indeed rage and they went on to live happily ever after? Possibly, but unlikely in my mind.
Like everyone I'm engaging in speculation here, but the best explanation of all this series of grim events is a psychotic break by the young mother and out of protective (if misguided) instincts the family and partner decided cover it up and move on as best they could.
We know the prevalence of infanticide in these circumstances, it's not as uncommon as one might think.
And if it was the father, would that also be psychosis or just a brutal murder?
It's possible but I still think it's unlikely. In your scenario this mother went through a concealed pregnancy, gave birth with no medical help, then had a mental episode and killed her baby violently. She then just got on with normal life, married her partner and had more babies. I don't think this scenario could have played out without this couple having serious issues - both of them. Would her partner not have been petrified to have more children with her, would she not have been afraid of having another baby herself?
To me the murder of baby John was no accident - it was very deliberate and I don't think the mother was responsible.
This was the 80s and it was (with what info we have) a woman in her late teens carrying a child out of wedlock in rural Ireland. Pregnancies of this sort were routinely concealed from family and medical professionals alike.
I don't see how a death linked to a post partum psychosis event can be ruled out. In fact, I'd rank it as among the most likely of hypotheses.
A quick search reveals that 1 in 1000 women will suffer a psychotic event after giving birth, and of those, 4% will commit infanticide. You'd have to think that a concealed pregnancy would exacerbate the risk.
It tallies in my mind, and it's more common than one would think. And probably concealed more than you'd think as well.
Post partum psychosis is very unlikely imo. It seems to have been a well concealed pregnancy with no medical intervention. All hospitals and doctors were asked to provide details of recent births and pregnancies and this mother ( it would appear) never came to gardais attention. I don't believe hospital/doctors would have colluded with Gardai to keep this secret. If the mother/parents intended to keep the baby medical attention would have been sought - it seems the intention was always to dispose of this baby after birth like he never existed.
I do accept though that the parents could have thought at the time that the baby was going to be given away to another family. However when a newborn baby was found murdered on a beach in Kerry these parents would have had to realise there was a high chance that was their baby.
The term "partner" tends to be a generic description so could still mean wife, husband, boyfriend or girlfriend. Most reports say those arrested are a married couple.
Partly agree.
But, looking at the obscenity of the treatment of the Hayes family by the State, from a self-preservation point of view, could you really blame them if they kept their heads down?*
The State, the press, and society at large was not turning it's best side out with this case. We're an intensely judgemental and vengeful race of people when the mood takes us.
While postpartum psychosis is realtively well understood in 2023, in the 80s and beyond she'd have been branded a murderous witch, could have been strung-up by the the Gardai and prosecutors and a significant segment of society would have been calling for the rope for her.
*This is of course, taking my hypothesis of it being the result of a post natal psychotic break as true. Which it may not be.
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