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Storage Heaters, anyone able to explain this cost?

phormium

Friend has just asked me about their ESB bill as I used to deal with budgeting matters etc.

Anyway long story short they turned on storage heaters that were in the house, council property, for the first time since moving in probably two years ago. Neighbours told them should be using them, weather is cold etc etc, 2 heaters in the house, one small in hall, one bigger in living room, small one bed bungalow, no heater in bedroom oddly enough.

Bill has arrived and the units used for 64 days is 5437 from a 0 base as not previously used, cost 1,137.42 before vat or standing charge. Unit cost .2082 Night Heat. Damn expensive heat for a hall and living room! Can this be right and is storage heating actually that expensive? Or is there something wrong with the heaters because they are old?

I will ring ESB on Monday but just wanted to get a bit of background knowledge of how this heating system works if anyone can throw some light on it.

They are turned off now again obviously but too late!

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Water John

Storage heating is very expensive, even with night rate, especially if it's an older house.

85 units per day average. Say 2kw heater in the hall and 3 kw in the living room. That's 5kw per hour. They'd need to have been on 17 hours every day. Check the size on each one.

phormium

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120481545#Comment_120481545

Thanks, will check, very very small house, council terraced bungalow (mid terrace so only two external walls), honestly I think my kitchen/dining room is bigger than whole house! It is old alright though, I thought they were just on as such at night and then the heat came out during day, do you mean they must have kept them switched on to boost or something by day as well? I haven't had experience of those heaters since many years ago at work.

odyssey06

I think you need to get them checked out. The storage heaters should only draw heat at night during the set night rate hours. They aren't on all day. So it is 8 hours and then the night rate unit cost should be significantly less than day rate eg half the amount.

Can you keep an eye on the night meter during the day with storage heaters input on and make sure it's not clicking over?

I used them in an apartment few years back and the one in the living room was great when working from home in winter. This was an 'ancient' storage heater from when the apartment was originally built in the late 60s. People in the apartment who replaced them with modern storage heaters were disappointed with their performance - although they had more control to 'boost' the heaters to work on day rate if needed.

There was one in bedroom but thought that was impractical as it made the bedroom too hot at night - bathroom or hall would have made more sense.

Never had a bill anything like that even accounting for the increase in energy costs.

nothing

First, get them to switch electricity providers - the night rate should be much lower.

Second, see if they can give you make/model of the heaters, there's bound to be instructions online. They definitely shouldn't be using *that* much.

You say they only turned them on for the first time in 2 years, what were they using to heat the place before that?

For reference, I'm in a 2 bed apartment - one big and one small heater in main living area and one bedroom heater were on over winter and it came to 400e for 2 months with them on constantly (though not on boost!)

Edit - also worth checking that the night rate clock is set correctly

phormium

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120481846#Comment_120481846

Yes they have never switched from Electric Ireland since moving in despite my advice! But anyway will probably do so now when this is sorted. I will have a look as soon as I can call there at the make/model.

Since they moved in they were using an open fire and still are mainly, it's lit every day/night and it heats the water. Quick blast of heat in bedroom when needed was done with fan heater and there is an electric wall heater in bathroom. It was while chatting to a neighbour that the topic came up and neighbour said they should switch them on as they were great! Really the only benefit of them was the hall and living room were warm in morning when they got up as they are out for most of the day but obviously they were still on.

There is some bit of a story with the meter which I must get the correct version of, when they decided to turn them on for some reason the council (I think) sent out someone to look at meter or reactivate or something, anyway it basically blew the guy off the ladder and ESB had to send someone immediately to fix it so will have to find out exactly what was done/happened that day!

Edit: Just checked Bonkers there and most night rates are higher than what they are paying, only one lower at .19 odd, not much less than the .2092 they are on.

nothing

Apologies, I hadn't actually looked at my bill, I knew one of the rates was around the 20 but misremembered which!

I wonder was the meter switched to a single rate before, though it sounds like there was a bigger issue from what you've said.

I suppose they'd need to look at the cost of lighting the fire versus the heaters, it might be cheaper to stay as they were.

I don't have any other heating options, but I'm on a level pay bill - I pay the same amount every month and it evens out the small summer bills with the bigger winter ones.

Roxxers

they are shite

phormium

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120482138#Comment_120482138

Made me laugh at least! 😁

phormium

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120482091#Comment_120482091

Dunno, will have to have a look at meter too, the storage heater part was never used since moving in so it started at 0 but will see if anything is obvious.

Re the open fire they are using that as much as ever, its not an either or situation as the fire will be lit every day regardless!

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120481545#Comment_120481545

Water John is probably right here - it sounds like the storage heaters are on all day - I wonder if it's related to the electrical incident, maybe the day/night change-over meter is shot.

walterking

Storage heaters are a pain in the ass as you need to manage them daily.

Firstly you need to know the "night" switch and the "boost" switch.

Assuming you know the night switch,

1 - set "input" to or even 2 for a small apartment.

2- at night set output to "1" - this closes the flaps to minimum.

During the day open the flaps as you need.

1 is almost closed and gives a small amount of heat, 6 is fully open and is max heat.

If they are not in the apartment much during the day, then it might not be the best option and using the manual boost for an hour or so every evening is probably best especially now with milder weather

walterking

The other possibility is that the timer on the night meter is wrong and needs to be adjusted.

phormium

Thanks for all suggestions and for the instructions on how to work them, I'm going to try take a look today at all the various bits and see if anything stands out as obvious problem either through their usage or the equipment itself.

phormium

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120481545#Comment_120481545

Update - I looked at the heaters today and could find nothing on them telling me what kw they are, the larger one in the living room seems to be older than the one in hall as markings had all but worn off it! Checked with neighbour with same house, same two heaters and bill covered almost exact same dates (assume meter reader read them all the same day) and her units used were 1138 as opposed to 5437 and bearing in mind that they actually turned off the heaters sometime before the date the reading was taken as it's still the same today as on day it was read 4th April so they weren't even in use for the full 64 days of this bill.

Think it's a call to Electric Ireland tomorrow to get them to investigate this, I can do no more.

nothing

They almost certainly had the boost on constantly

phormium

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120485267#Comment_120485267

I questioned that too, they never touched the controls at all, just flicked the big red switch on the wall to turn them on and they are on timer then apparently. Plus if they were on boost during the day would that not be at day rate then rather than night rate? They would not have been there a lot during the days anyway to need it if they knew about it and if they were they light the fire early.

Edit: actually went back and had a look at pics I took today of controls and had a look online at how to operate etc and looks like there is actually no boost on them, just two dials input/output, they are that old I would say! I know the ones we had at work years ago had a clearly identifiable boost button as do many of the types I looked at online but these ones definitely just have 2 dials both set at 4 as done by the Council guy.

nothing

Hmmm, you're right about day rate, and I know the type you mean, it's baffling the usage is so high!

phormium

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120485937#Comment_120485937

Yes it is baffling, their day rate total was actually lower this bill than previous one and was very reasonable so not that! I will update when I have hopefully got an answer from Electric Ireland.

walterking

I think the night rate meter is on an incorrect time.

They are manual meters and need to be checked frequently (annually) for accuracy

phormium

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120485974#Comment_120485974

It's a spanking new meter installed 31/1/23, sticker on it with date cos old one blew the electrician off the ladder! Well it's very dirty looking for new, maybe it's preloved :) but was installed as replacement anyway on that date and started at zero although I have no proof of that. It should have started at zero as the heating had never been used by this tenant before, the previous bills show zero under reading for night rate so I assume that transferred over to this meter.

meter.jpg

odyssey06

Let the heaters go cold ie input off.

In the morning after 9am put input on.

Check if they warm up.

Dont forget to turn off.

phormium

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120486408#Comment_120486408

Thanks but we're not going to go messing with them now until checked by whoever needs to , they have been off for weeks at this stage and the settings are as done by council so won't alter anything until this is sorted.

Water John

Was the meter zero at installation? You have no verification of that, unless the ESB guy took a picture of it.

phormium

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120486702#Comment_120486702

Don't know, this is the problem isn't it? It should have been in that this tenant never used this meter in the two years they were living there and obviously couldn't have anyway as it wasn't actually working hence the replacement. On the previous reading from old meter it has never changed from when they moved in and previous bills show 0 units used on that meter which shows they didn't use it but as to what the new meter showed after installation we have no proof as obviously they didn't think to take a picture of it, who would! Never opened that cabinet normally at all, it's outside front of house so can be accessed by ESB/meter reader without any involvment from tenant.

walterking

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120486702#Comment_120486702

They use brand new meters straight out of the box. Meters themselves are very cheap.

phormium

Just to update this thread with the answer, well a sort of answer!

Eventually back in November/December after much emailing plus actual letter/copy documents to be sure and several requests for Final Response letter so I could take complaint to CRO plus of course a disconnection notice to really frighten the customer who was continually paying monthly bills of what I worked out each time was the correct amount and probably a little over this was finally sorted.

EI agreed that the two storage heaters in question could not possibly have used that many units over the 2 month billing period and indeed pointed out quite correctly that the usage seen would be more likely for a full winter season! However no explanation was given for how the brand new meter racked up such usage. They refunded full amount of overcharge based on what usage should have been, total of nearly €900 euro.

Interestingly they only resolved it when customers asked for all future correspondence/emails/calls etc to be routed through me on their behalf (even though I was actually doing all correspondence anyway under their email!) but once alternative name was given they fixed it nearly straightaway. I can only assume they thought I was some professional who had been employed on their behalf, solicitor or similar maybe 😁 not the case but well able to make my case!

Anyway it's a lesson learned, utility is not always right! Left alone these people would have agreed to the payment plan offered due to the constant letters/calls re the supposed arrears not to mind the disconnection notice! They were extremely stressed by it all and needless to say will never turn on those heaters again!

10-10-20

Thanks for coming back with an update and sorry for not following fully - but what did they do to resolve this? Did ESBn replace the meter or is the customer just not using the heaters...?

phormium

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704563#Comment_121704563

They did nothing other than refund the overcharged amount, no mention of changing meter or no explanation as to how it overcharged in first place. We ran a 24 hr test turning them on and it used a normal amount of units that period for them which formed the basis of our argument. Personally I believe the 'new' meter was not at zero initially or if it was there was units added to it for some reason, not sure if that is possible when installing but what other explanation!

Occupiers of house have not turned the heaters on since that 24 hr test during summer and will not be using them again as afraid of their lives of them and a potential bill!

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121705340#Comment_121705340

ok I get you now! 👍️