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Child Item

Maintainance order variation

babst1992

Hi All,

I and my ex agreed for child(one) maintenance to be 85 euros weekly. At this time, my barrister was putting pressure on me to agree because he did not want us to go to court to debate on this.So the maintenance was signed and taken to court. As a result, I agreed without doing any breakdown of expenses, and now its clearly transparent that I cannot afford this payment. I did not submit any affidavit of means or perform means test.

Currently, I earn about 29,000 euros and with other tax credit,my monthly take home is around 2020 euros. Meaning my take home is 505 euros weekly. This is a breakdown of my weekly expenses as I live i Dublin.

Rent - 175 euros

GNIB Renewal - 5.76

Yearly Insurance - 2.88

Doctor visitation and Medical bills - 1.92

Household gas and electricity - 21.75

AIB Loan repayment - 52

College loan repayment - 125

Transport - 20

Mum weekly upkeep - 20

If you do the Tots = 424 euros

Add Child maintenance - 85 euros

Total = 509 euros

If you notice, i did not include money for feeding, groceries and clothes as I have not been able to add them to the list. I am looking to go to court to seek for a variation but I have read several stories here that Court variation doesn't always go in the favor of men. This leads me to think whats the use of working if i cannot feed, and save money for the future. I have proof of all my outgoings also

Is there any chance that the judge would look into my figures and reduce it to 40-60 euros please ?. I want to pay maintenance but I also need a life and an opportunity to save for the raining days. She is currently on HAPP,lone parent,SW,Child benefit and pays nothing for rent.I do not know where she resides but I see my child every week at the park. However, I know her last known address but she has moved out. So in this situation, if I am asked for her address on the variation form, I do not know what to present.

I was thinking if I should reduce the maintenance to 50 euros in order for her to come to court if I get the variation with her last known address. Honestly, I do not know how the system works on this, as I might be in contempt of court, and I don't want to hire a useless lawyer like the last time.

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littlevillage

Not being a smart ass, but why did you agree in the first place to €90 per week, if you couldn't afford it? (your solicitor probably told you that the court would impose a higher amount, and that you should take the "deal" on offer) ... that may have been good advice.. but conversely had you gone to court, they would have examined your means & expenses etc. and would have come up with a figure you could reasonably afford.

You will only get a fair hearing in court for a downwards variation if there's been a big change in your circumstances eg. you lost your job, had another kid, became homeless etc. and even then it may only be a temporary change in the maintenance payment til you get back on your feet (you will be required to pay back any arrears).

Now some good news.

- Check if the €90 per week is index linked, I think its usually not. (this is important because obviously 'real' inflation in Ireland is now running at 8 or 9%)

- You are not going to be paying forever. Just until the rugrat is 18 (or 21 if in full time education)

babst1992

Hi @littlevillage

Thank you for responding.

are you saying that the amount cannot be varied downwards again as there is an agreement that was tendered to court. The agreement is not court ordered, agreed to hat I felt I could afford but I cannot afford that any longer. I stand to be corrected, I believe I can perform a means test now as I cannot afford paying, and the court would compare the agreement with a means test to see if that could work

Senature

Your loan repayments make up a large portion of your expenses, are those weekly figures correct? How soon will the loans be paid off?

Have you the opportunity to go for a promotion / different job with higher wages?

What age is your child? Do you cover any other expenses for them yourself directly - healthcare, school, food, clothing, activities etc?

babst1992

Hi @Senature

Those weekly figures ae accurate and I have the backup for all of this. I showed it to my lawyer but he was saying since I was working for a top firm the judge would not want to consider seeing my prospects, and that was why I agreed on that day. I am not due for promotion till October this year and the difference is only 7.5%. Doing the Maths, I would be earning 31,175 and that should be only 2200 approximately with my additional taxcredit. I am tied to a 3 and a half year work contract

My loan payments are due to be paid off in 3 years time. My child is 1 and a half years. I do not cover any other expenses for my child

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120475883#Comment_120475883

23 if in FTE...

Senature

I realise you are under pressure financially, which is a hard place to be. But you agreed to loan repayments of 177 per week, but expect your child to make do with 40?

Can you restructure the college loan to a longer term to make repayments more affordable?

If your child is not being directly cared for by you at all, I would think it's not a lot to expect you would pay a minimum of €10 per day, which is €70 per week, and not vastly different from what you pay already. You would be spending a lot more than this if your child lived with you.

There are support groups for separated and divorced people that are mentioned elsewhere on this forum, you might find them helpful.

All the best.

[Deleted User]

You have rent at €175, Utilities at €22 and Mum upkeep at €20. Are you living at home?

€85 is not a lot of maintenance and unfortunately, children are not cheap.

Also you may not realise any sw benefits she is in receipt of will be means tested on the amount set in the maintenance order (whether you pay it or not) and her payment reduced.

The reality is, every cost you don't share equally, is one the other parent has to make up from their pocket, because the costs still have to be paid.

You need to restructure your loans or find an evening job or a higher paying job.

Your child should be your first priority on that list, not the last.

babst1992

Hi @[Deleted User]

Thank you for responding. Unfortunately, I cannot restructure my loans as I am a foreigner as I came for my Masters programme and I don’t stay at home. I rent a shared accommodation and my visa restricted to my company. If I leave my company, I would be out of job & no employer can sponsor me

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120477112#Comment_120477112

So what is the €20 a week "Mum" upkeep on your list of outgoings?

If you cannot restructure your loans, then your only option is to find an evening or weekend job.

You might succeed in getting a reduction on your maintenance payment in court, but as I said earlier, every euro you reduce maintenance by is one the other parent has to make up for out of their pocket. Hardly fair.

babst1992

My mum has a sickness and I have to cater for her hospital bills

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120477132#Comment_120477132

Your responsibility is to your own child first.

Your mother is an adult and should pay her own hospital bills, instead of taking money from you you need for your own child.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120477112#Comment_120477112

So, if I have this correctly, you came over here to do a masters, got someone pregnant, and now want the Irish taxpayer to take responsibility so you won't have to?

Bad news - it doesn't (or shouldn't) work like that - the child is yours, you now need to man up and take responsibility, even if that's difficult for you. Restructure your loans, stop paying your mothers bills, and do whatever else is required to live up to your responsibilities.

Furze99

You do seem to be in a bit of a bind OP and the fact that you're on some sort of work/ study visa will mean you need to be extra cautious.

But you need some good legal advice, look up: https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/legal_aid_and_advice/

You should be able to get proper legal advice at little or free cost, if you explain your situation.

Senature

Hi again op. I agree your situation does not seem straightforward as your visa is tied to your job so further / different employment is not really a option for you.

If you are not legally your child's guardian this should be your immediate priority. Not knowing where they live is not an acceptable situation.

On an ongoing basis, do you want more access than a weekly visit in the park? If so, this should also be a priority to have this legally formalised. If you are not in a suitable living situation for overnight stays, you can still bring your child out for the day yourself and develop a relationship with them. Playing an active role in your child's life is far more important and meaningful than a bank transfer.

Financially, could mabs.ie help you? I think you need to restructure your loans so the repayments are more affordable.

Make sure all maintenance you pay is into a bank account so that there is an official record. I would expect that taking steps to play a more active role in your child's life would be viewed favourably by the court, as would restructuring your loans to facilitate ongoing maintenance payments.

If you make a good argument, and demonstrate your willingness to engage in the system and prioritise your child, that should reflect well on you in court. However, I would not recommend proposing maintenance of less than €60 per week, it's just too low.

And by the way, I admire you for assisting your mother, nobody here knows your personal circumstances and it reflects well on you that you are providing support to her.

All the best.

[Deleted User]

I agree MABs is who the OP needs to get in contact with. All banks engage with MABs.

Money Advice and Budgeting Service

With 34% of net income going out on loan repayments weekly, I am surprised these loans were even approved in the first place. That is double the current contribution towards his child weekly. (17%)

Even if the college loan cannot be restructured, the AIB loan should be possible.

Back when I was in the District Courts the guidelines then was for a minimum of €75 per child per week, and that was 20 years ago, so €85 per week now is not a huge increase on that.

Sorry, but I still don't agree with reducing maintenance while paying for another adult's medical bills. In effect, doing so would mean it's the child's mother taking the hit for that, not the OP.

Senature

Loueze I think you might be forgetting that you know nothing of the OP's country of origin or the needs of his mother. In Ireland the state would provide what she needs, but this is not at all the case in many other parts of the world.

His child is not going to go hungry or be homeless because of the support he provides to his mother.

I personally think this shows how the entire system of maintenance is poorly structured. Within a family unit, people are empowered to choose to budget, spend, cut back, treat etc depending on their means. With maintenance, no matter what is going on it has to be paid on time, every week, with zero input into how it is spent.

The OP has a low enough salary to survive on in Dublin, he does not live in his own home as the child and their mother do, he houseshares. Doesn't sound like he has a car either, so is not likely to be living an extravagant lifestyle at the expense of his child.

There is definitely not any minimum of €75 per week in place. I know this from personal experience. Many fathers now directly care for their children half the time or close to it. In that case, what would the €75 be for? If anything amounts have dropped, with the recession, expensive rents due to housing crisis, and state supports such as gp care, preschool, hap etc all increasing.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120481165#Comment_120481165

The €75 per week minimum was a benchmark used in the District Courts and they worked upwards or downwards from that. The maximum was (and I believe still is) €150 per week in the District Court. There is no limit in the Circuit Court. Also my personal experience, as explained.

The OPs country of origin here is irrelevant.

The harsh reality is, he lives in Ireland, and in Ireland, parents have a legal liability to maintain their children. They do not have a legal liability to maintain their parents, so any payment the OP makes to his mother is voluntary.

Some other harsh realities:

I want to pay maintenance but I also need a life and an opportunity to save for the raining days.

When you're a parent, your "life" and savings comes from any disposable income you have left over after you pay for your responsibilities. Not before.

Speaking of the child's mother, has it been considered if she can afford a €35 a week / €140 per month reduction in maintenance proposed by the OP in the current climate? The OP states she survives on social welfare.

She is currently on HAPP, lone parent, SW, Child benefit and pays nothing for rent.

If the mother is on HAP, then she pays rent according to her means. This is assessed on all her income, including benefits + the child maintenance. This does not mean she is paying "nothing" for rent.
"SW" is not a separate payment.

At this time, my barrister was putting pressure on me to agree because he did not want us to go to court to debate on this. So the maintenance was signed and taken to court.

Any application for a variance will take several months to get a court date. Given it is now mid April, and with Court summer break, it will most likely be Autumn before that happens.
If maintenance is reduced while awaiting a hearing, the mother will be unable to get her OPFP reassessed until after the hearing is issued so will be out of pocket twice. Reduced maintenance and reduced benefit.

So while the child may not starve in Ireland, but that does not lessen the OP's obligations. Single mothers get a bad rap on this forum for being spongers, but there seems to be no accountability for fathers not meeting their obligations.

If after considering all of the above, the OP cuts his payment, he should not be surprised if the reaction from his child's mother is very negative.

maninasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120477276#Comment_120477276

I've read some moralising dumb stuff before ..but this...

Lots of countries round the world don't have social welfare. Family are the only support.

[Deleted User]

Irrelevant. The OP lives in Ireland.

You can accuse me of moralising all you wish but his legal and obligation to his child comes before his mother.

Senature

Loueze you have just stated €75 was an amount that the court moved upwards or downwards from. Therefore it is not an established minimum as you claimed.

Also, if your experience was 20 years ago it was during the celtic tiger and predates the recession, a completely different economic circumstance to now.

If you read my posts, I suggested several times to the op that €40 pw maintenance was too low.

The mother and child currently appear to have far superior rights and living arrangements to the OP, with state support, while his work and visa arrangements mean his situation is precarious.

I'm not at all bashing mothers, just that you seem unwilling to acknowledge these facts and the particular circumstances at play here.

It came across badly in the OP when he suggested reducing to €40 per week, but he is a Dad who is voluntarily paying €85 maintenance per week for his child, even though it appears he cannot afford it. He is trying to figure out how he can manage to continue to provide on an ongoing basis. I don't think he deserves to be insulted and so heavily criticised.

[Deleted User]

I did not state €75 was an established minimum. I said it was a guideline. Re-read the post.

Senature

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120481364#Comment_120481364

Presumably his mother does not live in Ireland.

He is putting his child before his mother, paying more than four times the amount for the child. The child has two parents, not just one.

It's very common for a parent to spend time or money caring for their own parent, particularly in times of ill health or old age. It's a generally accepted part of life. It could be argued that this is always time or money that could be otherwise spent on their children. But nobody in my experience would berate them for doing this, let alone accuse them of ducking out on their obligations to their children.

I've no idea why you are so hung up on this point?

Senature

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120481458#Comment_120481458

You called it a minimum twice.

Here...

Back when I was in the District Courts the guidelines then was for a minimum of €75 per child per week

And here...

The €75 per week minimum

If you agree there is no established minimum amount then we agree, so no need to dispute...

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120481614#Comment_120481614

€75 per child was the recommended minimum, yes. It was a guideline. I'm not the one disputing anything, you are. What you want me to say is there was no guideline at all, but that would be untrue. There was, and it was €75 per child per week. You introduced the term "established" minimum, not me.

Anyway, I'm not interested in getting into a back and forth on this any further. It does not add to the thread.

The OP's legal and moral obligation is to his child first and foremost.

He has been advised that the first place he should look to cut his expenditure is by restructuring his loans, rather than cutting what he agreed to pay for his child.

He has stated that the mother's income is from social welfare, which as I mentioned earlier, will already have been means tested based on what he agreed to pay. Do you know any SW receipient who could easily afford a €140 a month reduction in income right now? You seem to think it would be no big deal.

If he has sufficient disposable income after restructuring his loans and paying his child maintenance that allows him to contribute towards his mother's costs, well and good.

Ironically, there is a thread on PI at the moment on the subject of adult children being asked to pay for a parent's medical bills. The overwhelming attitute of the responses is that the parent's medical bills should not be a responsibility put on adult children, and that their own families come first.

Senature

Seriously Loueze, you must be arguing with me for the sake of it now. If you read back, we actually agree on several elements of this situation.

You said minimum twice, a minimum means just that, the lowest point, not a point that can be downgraded. That is why I took that from what you said. If you meant something else, then you meant something else. Fine.

I disputed the notion of a minimum maintenance payment to provide an alternative viewpoint for the OP that I know to be true, as this thread is here to give him information, and not what has turned into a barrage of criticism for helping his mum.

The other thread you mention is not really relevant here. The OP and his mother are not Irish. He would not need a work visa if they were.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120481783#Comment_120481783

I could say the same about you, arguing for the sake of it.

I never criticised him for helping his Mum, just pointed out that his child comes first. I stand over that.

Senature

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120481804#Comment_120481804

Eh no, my intention was to clarify the information being provided to the OP about maintenance and court, which is what he was posting about.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120481884#Comment_120481884

And if you had taken my post in context I was pointing out that €85 a week - the figure suggested by the OP's own barrister - is not a large increase on what the District Court *GUIDELINE* used to be.