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Parking fine

RoboRat

I got a parking fine yesterday because I 'overstayed' the 3 hour max. I had paid the parking fee, but the warden still issued the fine. Its worth noting, this is the only carpark where you can legally park in this town, and it was less than half full all day.

I was working and I knew the warden will do anything to fine you, so I downloaded the app.

I'm going to challenge this but I find it odd that the warden took detailed photos at 11am, then later at 2.30. I have parked there before (once every 6 weeks) and paid via the ticket machine and never been fined. My feeling is that this is because I used the app this time. I can't see how it would be possible for a warden to patrol the town and take such detailed photos of all cars.

Is it possible to ask under the freedom of information act to get information to see if they did this to all cars, or just certain cars, or more likely, just cars that use the app. I also want to know if any local businesses are given a dispensation to park all day, because there is nowhere else to legally park.

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RoboRat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120477110#Comment_120477110

I wasn't aware of the 3-hour limit - I knew you could pay for parking for up to 3 hours at a time and the app offered the option to extend your parking session when the 3 hours were up. There is a sign, but it's in the corner and not very prominent as it's surrounded by trees. I genuinely didn't think they were issuing fines for not moving your car before the 3 hours expired. I know better now and in hindsight, I should have thought about it, but I was trying to get into work and it wasn't something I was thinking about - I was just making sure that my parking had been paid. I do feel that it's sharp practice to offer an extension when it's not permitted.

As I said, I had parked there before, and previously I would have gone out and bought a new ticket before my ticket ran out. Other staff members do the same - nobody thought they were issuing fines if you had paid for your parking, and they were very surprised to hear this. They work there day in, day out, and had never heard of this happening before. They knew the warden was very strict about having paid for your parking; there is a running joke that he would hide in the bushes with a stopwatch.

I understand the reasoning behind the 3-hour limit, but as I already stated, the car park is never full during weekdays. I cannot find another place to legally park, that's the problem. I will just have to park there and play musical car spaces to show that I have moved the car which is utterly moronic.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120477064#Comment_120477064

I suspect that the 3 hr limit is intended to prevent all-day parking by workers, reducing the spaces necessary for shoppers. It reads like you understood the terms and conditions of the car park when you parked there (3 hr limit), but don’t like the fact that when the t&cs were applied, you got fined.

Chalk it down to experience, and find somewhere new to park, the attendant now has you marked.

RoboRat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120477037#Comment_120477037

Hmmm... it's a council car park. It's run by the council which runs on money derived from taxation. I contribute to that tax - in fact, I was actively working to contribute towards that taxation at the time. You may as well ask why should someone provide you with a road to move your private property?

I paid for the parking and thankfully, some sane minds have seen the nub of the issue and hopefully, it will be resolved and fixed.

RoboRat

I had a good chat with the council and they see my point (I was quite surprised). They also agree with the query raised regarding the app offering the extension when it's not available.

2 councilors have been in touch to say the issue will be raised at the next meeting, and they hope to come up with a solution for local businesses, and their parking requirements.

I'm glad I challenged it and hopefully, it will sort the problem out.

@Peregrinus, thanks for taking the time to offer your view.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120476877#Comment_120476877

Why do you think that it’s someone else’s job to provide you with storage space for your private property?

RoboRat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120476657#Comment_120476657

The car park should be available for people who need to park their cars. The car park is rarely full on weekdays - it was less than half full yesterday. There is a car park in the local shopping centre which is very close, but it's for their customers only.

I understand that they impose these restrictions to stop people from parking up and heading off for the day, but there is a middle ground for those who work locally and need somewhere to park. I hope that my objections might make them aware of a problem that they need to address.

cml387

By your reckoning the car park should be available for all day parkers provided they pay the requisite fee.

Do you not consider the possibility that the council are foregoing the revenue that would generate to allow people who are visiting the town for business, shopping or medical appointments to park there? You say it's the only legal car park in town.

RoboRat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120476464#Comment_120476464

That was my feeling, although I felt they would argue that the app can be used on multiple car parks and this option may be available for some. I do feel that not having a simple warning message is just lazy - it can be easily done. Even disabling the option to extend can be done using logic - if car park = X, do not display extend option.

The reason I was enquiring about the number of cars being photographed is that if they are targeting app users, could that be perceived as a breach of GDPR - they are not using the data they collected for the purposes it was meant for. Hard to prove, I know. I have appealed the fine and if they reject the appeal, I will then ask about the app and if there are dispensations for other businesses. It's a council car park, so it should have the same rules for everyone.

I just had a call from 2 councilors and both agreed that it's wrong - they're going to appeal on my behalf as they offered to extend the parking and they accepted the offer.

cml387

If the app is a generic app for the county council concerned than it can be used for payment in any car park using the code provided on the signs.

Where local restrictions (such as a three hour max stay) are applied, then the app may include provision for this, for example stating that users must still obey any particular rules applicable to the parking zone used.

Peregrinus

I think even an enquiry about how many cars were photographed would be an enquiry about law enforcement measures, and would probably be knocked back.

Your point about the app accepting payments to extend/renew sessions is a good one. If it's not permitted to do this, then the Council shouldn't be accepting money from people who want to do it (and then fining them for doing it!). It's not good enough to say that this is a feature of the app; the council doesn't have to offer payment by app in the first place but, if they do, they have a responsibility to find (and if necessary commission) an app that is actually fit for purpose.

If I was in your position and if I didn't value my time, I'd consider not paying the fine and going to court, where I would point out that the Council accepted payment to extend the parking session, creating a reasonable belief on your part that this was permitted, and that it would be oppressive of them to prosecute you for an act in which they themselves were complicit.

RoboRat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120476350#Comment_120476350

Thanks, this is useful. I'm not looking for actual photos of the cars, just to know how many cars were photographed in such a manner on that day. If this is standard practice, then I'll suck it up. The problem is that other staff members use the ticket machine and never had this issue. If they only photographed certain cars, and those cars were app users, then I question their use of the app. I also have to question why the app offers to extend your stay when this is not allowed - I know that this is probably a generic function but there is no warning, that's just lazy. There is one sign in the car park and it's right in the corner and surrounded by trees so it's not immediately visible.

The car park is a county council car park and we have approached them before about using it for employees. We got nothing back so I would be interested to see if this is the case for all.

walterking

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120476261#Comment_120476261

I think most posters are telling you to pay the fine and jog on.

Whining that you got caught and someone else didn't is rather petty and trying to find a "legal" angle to worm out of paying is just stupidity

Peregrinus

You won't be able to use the FoI Act to find out if other peoples' cars were photographed — that's their personal information, protected by GDPR. Only they can access it. (Likewise they cannot find out if your car was photographed.) Plus, photographing the cars is a law enforcement measure, and information relating to law enforcement is generally not accessible under the FoI Act. So, no joy there.

If there is an agreement with any business by which they get extended parking rights, that probably is discoverable, unless it's an agreement under which the business pays for extended parking rights, in which case its probably exempt as commercially sensitive information. But you're on a fishing expedition there — you have no reason to think that such an agreement exists.

Before making an FoI request you should probably investigate whether the Council has power to make such an agreement — if there are bye-laws, regulations or other legislation in place limiting parking to three hours, the Council probably can't make a contract with someone allowing them to park for longer than that; they have to amend (or the the Minister to amend) the legislation.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120476261#Comment_120476261

having that information doesn't help your case.

RoboRat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120476147#Comment_120476147

I'm not whining about anything. I asked a question to find out if I could use the freedom of information act to find out if all cars are photographed in the manner mine was, or if it is just those who use the app. I also wanted to see if I could use the same act to find out if any businesses have a dispensation to park all day.

If you don't have anything to add to THAT question, then jog on.

walterking

You really have a lot of time on your hands.

There is a 3 hours time limit. You breached that limit. You got a ticket. The warden has absolute proof you breached that limit. You even accept you breached that limit.

Yet you are whining on a forum and want to to use foi to show PRECISELY what you are already accepting and then spend hours of time trying to defend a clear breach of the regulations which you accept you knew about.

Seriously????

cml387

Ok, you are pissed because you were fined correctly. Rather than suck it up you are drawing in all kinds of assumptions and irrelevant issues under the "It's not fair (miscellaneous provisions )" act.

I doubt you'll get much sympthyy here.

RoboRat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120476075#Comment_120476075

Not a conspiracy theory, just a logical conclusion. One parking warden for the entire town, and it's a large town. It would be impossible to take photos of all cars. Perhaps I was unlucky and they did a spot check. My feeling is that they do this for app users as it's probably more likely that an app user would do this. I don't agree with the fine but I want to know if they are just focusing on app users, and I want to know if any employees are allowed to park all day. If they're going to be fair, then be fair.

artanevilla

The amount of cars in the car park is also irrelevant.

cml387

Is it that you are only allowed one 3 hour period per day (i'm still not entirely clear).

The amount of cars in the car park or the ins and outs of apps are irrelevant if you were fined correctly.

Caranica

If the rules say max stay 3 hours and you overstayed that's all that matters. How you paid is utterly irrelevant, you broke the rule and were caught this time. Just because you got away with it before doesn't mean you're being targeted this time because of your payment method.

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120476063#Comment_120476063

You're in to conspiracy theories there. Appeal it if you think you were legally parked. Though some have conditions like the car has to be moved between sessions. It's often three hours max, not as many consecutive sessions of three hours as you like.

RoboRat

I paid for one 3 hour session and then paid for a second. I was fully paid whilst using the car park. The fine was for staying over 3 hours in a half full carpark. The warden took detailed photos of my wheel positions to show i didn't move the car.

I just want to know if the warden is targeting app users, and if certain businesses/ employees are allowed to stay all day. I can't see them taking such photos of all the cars in this town.

Jim_Hodge

I'm confused. You have overstayed in quotes but it seems you were there at 11 and still at 2.30, which is well over three hours. It simply looks like you were caught.

cml387

Are you saying that you paid the correct fee but still received the fine?

Or that the fee only paid for three hours max and you overstayed?

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058292328/parking-fine

Are you saying you didn’t overstay beyond the 3 hr limit, or are you saying you did, and are pissed off because you got caught and fined? Hard to tell.