Following on from here
New Munster chat thread folks. warning deserved there. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=109477571#post109477571
Yep, Rowntree has gone very conservative with selection over the last few months.
Extremely harsh on Rowntree, imo.
He started Campbell and Phillips with Edogbo and Quinn on the bench at the start of the season on the back of two bad losses when the whole team was under the pump and went on to win a high pressure game against Zebre.
With regards Philips and Campbell, wasn't this during the EI tour? If so, they were literally our only back-3 players available because of injuries to Haley, Zebo, Liam Coombes, Earls and Conway, and Daly and Dash away with the EI tour.
We had nobody else. And besides, Daly and Nash have been 2 of our best players of the season so far; they're both now justified 1st choice.
With regards Edogbo and Ahern, they've both had injury issues.
That’s a strong Stormers team. Big ask for Munster. LBP or TBP would probably be a good result.
Yep, Rowntree has gone very conservative with selection over the last few months. Some of it may be down to injury but it seems like he's really tightened up. He started Campbell and Phillips with Edogbo and Quinn on the bench at the start of the season on the back of two bad losses when the whole team was under the pump and went on to win a high pressure game against Zebre. Two weeks later he started with Campbell at 15 and Edogbo at second row with Ahern on the bench for another high pressure game after a bad loss to Connacht. That team smashed the Bulls. All 5 of those players have disappeared over the last two months despite being listed as fit. Pre season he was picking Okeke before his injury but again he's been fit for two months yet nowhere to be seen.
Our pack looks to be the dreaded combination of light and slow. Who's going to carry in that pack? Are they going to ask Coombs to do it all or are we hoping and praying that Snyman has rediscovered his fitness and form to take on some of that load? You would think that one of more of Ahern, Edogbo, Quinn, Okeke or Campbell could add heft, power and speed off the bench but instead we have Wycherly, JOD and Earls.
How so?
Healy would be better suited to what we need now than both Crowley and joey ….but third choice because he is off at end season ….
Shame it seems to be a game too early for Edogbo - would have thought he was a significant power upgrade over Wycherley.
True enough - Carbery is surely still ahead of Healy
He started the season poorly, went well after the AI’s but slipped back again the last while, is my view of his form.
So much so that Crowley was preferred to start ahead of him for the Champions Cup knockout game vs the Sharks.
It could just be a case of keeping the squad fresh tho; Munster played well but faded badly in both games in SA last season.
Presumably just in reserve for next weekend. Whatever about Crowley, it's highly unlikely he's slipped behind Ben Healy.
Is Carbery injured? I thought he had been playing at a level worth a place in the squad, if not a guaranteed starter.
DHL Stormers: 15 Damian Willemse, 14 Suleiman Hartzenberg, 13 Ruhan Nel, 12 Dan du Plessis, 11 Seabelo Seabelo, 10 Manie Libbok, 9 Paul de Wet, 8 Hacjivah Dayimani, 7 Ben-Jason Dixon, 6 Willie Engelbrecht, 5 Marvin Orie, 4 Ruben van Heerden, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Joseph Dweba, 1 Steven Kitshoff (captain).
Replacements: 16 JJ Kotze, 17 Ali Vermaak, 18 Neethling Fouche, 19 Ernst van Rhyn, 20 Marcel Theunissen, 21 Evan Roos, 22 Herschel Jantjies, 23 Clayton Blommetjies.
yikes...
im genuinely sad not to see Carbery - but not surprised. Hopefully Crowley will kick on now.
please God Barron doesn’t get pinged for doing a dummy throw before the real thing. Such a shocker that wasn’t coached out of his game a long time ago.
Team named. Crowley starts at 10 again, this time with Murray. Snyman too, and Kendellen at 7. No Carbery in the 23.
Good to see Loughman back and Knox in the 23 again too.
Munster: Mike Haley; Calvin Nash, Antoine Frisch, Malakai Fekitoa, Shane Daly; Jack Crowley, Conor Murray; Jeremy Loughman, Diarmuid Barron, Stephen Archer; Jean Kleyn, RG Snyman; Peter O’Mahony (C), Alex Kendellen, Gavin Coombes.
Replacements: Scott Buckley, Josh Wycherley, Keynan Knox, Fineen Wycherley, Jack O’Donoghue, Craig Casey, Ben Healy, Keith Earls.
I think what some people may be missing is that there is a group that put up a couple of million or so each season to enable Munster to sign a couple of world class players. I would be shocked if that group would hand over that money for Munster to not sign anyone but instead say they want to use that money for developing players that may or may not be good enough to make a difference in the next decade or so.
De Allende and Snyman, Snyman and Fekitoa, Snyman and Nankivell.
So realistically, why shouldn’t the IRFU be funding at least one good foreign player for Munster?
I wouldn’t sign an NIQ 10 (all we need is a serviceable 10 to fill in as 3rd choice, an IQ player such as Conor Fitzgerald), but I think we could really use a ball carrying front row, like a big bruising pacific islander at hooker especially or a better tight-head prop instead of resigning Archer next season.
Paragraph 1: Do you know how much Munster have spent on development in recent years?
Paragraph 2: All noise until I see the rugby budgets and the backing.
But also, for what it's worth; I was making a bigger point than a comment claiming I'm just listing "reams of players produced by Michaels and Blackrock", and it's unfair to suggest otherwise.
Had posted this before I saw the mod note above.
Yeah, nice little joke, but you might have noticed I haven't said anywhere that there shouldn't be any overseas recruitment. I just queried originally a post claiming Munster needed funding for 3 'high standard' NIQs at 10, 2 and 3, in addition to Snyman and Nankivell.
Bringing in good quality overseas players is valuable to bring in outside perspective, and to help pass on good traits / habits. I'm not saying at all that Munster shouldn't sign any NIQ players, but arguably the level of spend they've allocated towards it in recent years could have been better spent.
Belvedere and Terenure have similar student numbers (and rugby heritage) as Blackrock, yet in recent times have fallen well shy in terms of player production.
Even in Munster, CBC is a sizable school of over 900 boys, with a strong rugby heritage as well. These are all fee paying schools, that have wealthy cohorts attending them and as part of their alumni network.
Glenstal and Clongowes are directly comparable - both are smaller schools, that charge nearly €20k a year in fees. Clongowes has churned out internationals (Dan Sheehan, Will Connors, Tadhg Beirne, Dave Kearney in the past 10 years), Glenstal's solitary international rugby player over that time period is Ben Healy. So what's the excuse reason there then? Surely there's plenty of affluence in the Glenstal alumni network that they could be digging deeper if they chose to?
Blackrock is a very difficult model to replicable because few other areas in the country have the combined affluence and population density within the commutable area to sustain a school of over 1000 fee-paying students, plus access to whatever contributions come from alumni and parents of the current cohort.
Fair play to Michaels, but in a similar vein, I'd like to see how much their rugby programme costs per year and how the bill gets paid.
Mod: Can I suggest taking this to another thread? Listing the reams of players produced by Michaels and Blackrock is, at best, tangentially related to Munster.
Have at it:
https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058292319/development-pathways/p1?new=1
My understanding is St. Michael's developed as an overflow school by parents (Dads) who could not get their sons into Blackrock, St.M's saw the gap and brought in a NZ pro Coach to attract boys who did not have old school, nod nod, connections, they may now have 2 full time rugby coaches.
Gonzaga seem to have cottoned on of late.
Maybe a follow on is Blackrock old boys club ain't at the same top level they once occupied.
Blackrock have produced even more over the same period - 10 internationals as well, who've earned a cumulative 244 caps. It's a bigger school, at closer to 1,100 students, but equally it's producing professional rugby players at a simply remarkable rate.
Those two schools alone have produced more Irish internationals in the past 10 years - 20 players (384 caps) than Munster (16 players - 92 caps), Ulster (15 players - 137 caps) and Connacht (12 players - 169 caps).
It's clearly not just numbers when you look at this. Of the players produced as well, of the 20 Blackrock/Michaels internationals only 6 earned less than 5 caps, with the median number of caps 19. There are 8 players in there who've earned over 25 caps (James Ryan, Hugo Keenan, Caelan Doris, Andrew Conway, Garry Ringrose, Joey Carbery, Ian Madigan, Jordi Murphy).
From the other three provinces combined, of the 43 internationals who've earned 398 caps, the median number of caps is 3. 25 of the 43 earned less than 5 caps, and only 5 earned over 25 caps (Robbie Henshaw, Kieran Marmion, Finlay Bealham, Paddy Jackson, Jacob Stockdale).
It's clear as day what's happening in those schools is on a different level to what is happening anywhere else in the country, arguably in Europe, but so far no one has put forward a good reason for why it isn't replicable.
However they get there - and copying whatever Michael's are doing probably isn't it - the only way the provinces can be competitive is through home grown talent, and lots of it.
Leinster have been on a roll for a few years but a few lean years are inevitable and when they come, results will suffer.
Any foreign signings are only ever going to be sticky plasters, but that's what Munster need in the front row right now.
If John McKee keeps developing he'll be far too good to be 3rd choice at Leinster, could be an option
PBC isnt the problem. it is producing pro players/irish 20s at quite a decent rate. Its beyond that there needs to be more done and its there that Munster cant compete. Michaels have significantly over produced pro players/irish 20s even on a global scale the past decade. its not comparable to anywhere else in the country.
Problem with doing it in 1/2 schools is it isnt enough. Munster need to fix/improve the system province wide not try do things in 1/2 schools
Michaels arent really importing anyone. They have a junior school but many from the local clubs minis are now going there when they may have went to other schools in past. Michaels dont really have too many whove moved school for senior cycle to play cup rugby iif you look at a lot of the recent cup sides.
I think FTD's argument is that if you get one or two big schools which dedicate themselves fully to rugby and you fix the system in the school to allow dedication to rugby and back that up with coaching assistance and facilities then you will start pumping out future pro players. All you need is a random 100 kids a year and to have them between 12-1
I disagree. I don't know how Michaels do it but I assume that they are importing quality players either by linking up with an amazing minis system producing top quality 12 year olds to enter the Michaels system or by importing students with scholarships at senior cycle level and taking credit for the best players who are already developed.
The point is that Michael's wasn't a top rugby school, then it was. The demographics didn't change, it's still a school full of teenage boys, so it must have been something else.
i agree with the majority of your post and this is slightly off point, but i will say from what i gather alot of the investment in leinster schools is mainly by the schools themselves (donations etc,) rather than irfu
"Hey, before Michael signs that contract, maybe we should instead hire more player development officers to improve our depth at tight-head"
Said absolutely nobody in Dublin 4, circa April 2021.
Yeah. People seem to forget it’s not just Leinster that has private schools.
Take St Michael’s then - it has roughly 650 students or thereabouts and annual fees of around €6k. Doesn’t offer boarding.
Are you saying there are no comparable schools in Munster?
What about PBC? It has more students at c. 720, broadly similar fees (€4.5k), equally non-boarding. It has a better rugby heritage than Michaels.
Yet in the past 10 years Michaels has produced 10 players who’ve been capped by Ireland (who’ve obtained 140 caps between them).
Munster collectively have only produced 16 players over the same timeframe, for a cumulative 92 caps. PBC have produced 3 players, for a cumulative 25 caps.
Are you seriously telling me there is a dramatic disparity in the socio economic background of the students of these two schools?
![Photo of [Deleted User]](https://wa.vanillicon.com/v2/ad289898c0c6dda7e667bf900ae26d0c.svg)
![Photo of [Deleted User]](https://wd.vanillicon.com/v2/ddb508ca3281bbcc5001177dc26332a1.svg)
![Photo of [Deleted User]](https://w8.vanillicon.com/v2/8a022abb175d445f2b5b8a1c545f3d3f.svg)
