Following on from here
New Munster chat thread folks. warning deserved there. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=109477571#post109477571
Munster need immediate help in a couple of positions. And if the funds and personnel can be sourced, they should sign them. Just as any other province would.
"No, you should instead sign more player development officers" is a statement which is, at best, lacking in any sense of empirical support.
Regis Sonnes helped in Bandon a lot and helped Crowley a lot but he was likely to emerge anyway regardless of Sonnes and Bandon will do more and it wont be because of what Sonnes did
You likely would see that change in Leinster as theyve more schools and more access to players through the schools in addition to the pro coaching, facilities as you say.
Pumping money into community development officers is a help as they can assist coach players more or can or should be assisting clubs and schools put in the structures to help develop better players.
You don’t think it’s down to demographics but then are pointing to Michael’s as an example of how to produce International calibre players?
I’m genuinely not trying to have another row FTD, but I really don’t follow that logic…
Yeah, I’m not disparaging those players at all. They’re obviously world class (DDA, Snyman) and hopefully Snyman in particular will have had a big influence longer term on the likes of Edogbo, Ahern etc.
I’ve just genuinely spent a fair bit of time thinking over the past week or two on player development pathways etc because of the comments from McFarland / Wigglesworth / Jackman, and trying to see what’s behind it.
I don’t think it’s just demographics - it’s just not a case of more numbers into the machine means more quality players out the other side. Not to create the level of disparity we’ve seen in the past 10 years or so.
I genuinely believe right now if you took 100 random 12-year old rugby players from Munster, the same from Ulster, Connacht and then Leinster, there wouldn’t be anything really between them in terms of quality. You’d have a few obviously athletically superior kids in there, quite a few average to poor players, and a lot of guys in the middle. Across all four groups.
But, crucially, I think if you revisited the same set of 100 players at this point in time at the age of say 18, you would see what we largely see in underage selections in recent years, a far higher proportion of pro-ready prospects in the Leinster group.
It wasn’t always that way. The schools system has always been around and always been the bulk feeder to Leinster, but the difference in quality in players coming from the schools versus elsewhere in the country wasn’t always so stark.
So what is the difference? Investment. Investment in coaching, facilities, nutrition, gym facilities etc.
If that’s what it is, that problem is solvable. It’s not that easy to find a target for how to make that investment, but pumping money into community development officers etc is surely a start (also I’m not oblivious to the fact that there is already a significant amount of these in Munster rugby).
I’ve made the point before on the case of St Michael’s College in Dublin. A virtual non-entity in rugby terms prior to winning their first senior cup in 2007. Prior to that you’d count on the fingers of one hand the number of Irish internationals they’d produced.
And yet, in the past decade, they’ve produced Dan Leavy, Luke McGrath, James Ryan, Ryan Baird, Ross Byrne, Harry Byrne, Ronan Kelleher, etc. What happened? What changed?
Even closer to home, you see the benefits of what Regis Sonnes was able to do in West Cork, and the pipeline of quality players who came through there.
Genuinely think there’s something in this.
You’re painting an either / or, black and white picture here when the reality is, it needs to be both.
By all accounts Munster’s development pathways have significantly improved (we’re seeing that in the players coming thru now).
Equally, Munster will always need to supplement with NIQ’s and players from outside the Province.
And we have (and I’m repeating myself at this point) the lowest number of NIQ players of any Province.
There is scope.
Isn’t that what RJ is therefore?
on the other hand, there are benefits to adding a couple of world class players, such as those mentioned, to the squad - once its kept to a relative minimum. DDA was generally top class for munster too, he just was unlucky that he was playing in a JVG team.
theres an argument that munster have brought in too many journeymen, but signing someone like frisch didnt excite me in any way initially and yet hes been pretty great so far. obviously jenkins didnt really show anything for munster and yet is now doing very well with leinster
Do you really think Munster are as close to European Cup success as that?
The competition is orders of magnitude more difficult to win now than when Leinster won their first one.
The aspiration here must surely be to get back to the very top table, not to just indulge fans in the short term with expensive signings when ultimately the team overall isn’t built to succeed.
We keep hearing how Leinster’s advantages are money, but here a number of Munster fans are consistently proposing just spending money now on a handful of players for a short period of time.
How many elite player development officers could Munster have employed instead of the money they’ve paid RG Snyman and Damian de Allende?
A player or two away from being genuine European and domestic contenders.
Ulster aren’t that, and there isn’t realistically much between Munster and Ulster right now.
Signing 3 high quality NIQ players in those positions is probably at least €1m a year or close enough. I think there are better and more sustainable ways Munster could spend that money.
A player or two away from what?
At the moment I feel that Munster are just a player or two away from being on the same level as Ulster.
That is to say a top 4/5 urc team that doesn't have to scrap to qualify for Europe and can compete for home knockouts.
Nothing wrong with 3 quality NIQ imo.
Would Leinster be better off without the Heineken Cups that Rocky Elsom, Brad Thorn, Scott Fardy and Nathan Hines helped them win?
(i.e., all of their Heineken Cups)
Kelleher just extended at Leinster so that's one IQ option gone.
Haven’t seen it reported that Nankivell is, but would think regardless of that, it wouldn’t be likely you’d get permission for 5 NIQ players.
Could be wrong but think it’s unlikely.
Would it be a good use of those funds anyway? Are Munster just a player or two away?
Genuine question: wouldn’t this private money be better spent funding an extra few player development officers for the next 10 years than on the likes of Snyman / De Allende?
Pretty sure both Snyman and Nankivell are privately financed, not paid for by the IRFU.
Yeah, I’m not saying they shouldn’t be allowed bring in any, and as others have mentioned I think a hooker is feasible given Ireland have four good options there and it’s an obvious position of weakness for Munster.
I just meant you won’t get the budget to bring in 3 in those positions (alongside Snyman and Nankivell).
its more likely than 10 but id still think it more likely that someone gets moved from another province (leinster lets be honest) rather than importing a foreign player. maybe if it were someone world class like marx as working with a player like that could help younger hookers, but i would still be very surprised
Given Ireland's options at hooker I'd say its one of the positions they could actually bring in a NIQ
Ya, that’s what I meant; we only have 2, so the lowest number of NIQ’s of any province.
It is but I also think it’s extremely unlikely to be a TH, imo.
Archer is signed on for 1 more season, John Ryan is coming back and we have Salanoa and Knox too.
Any more would probably be too many in a position we don’t really have any international involvement.
It needs to be a TH though or failing that a big ball carrying hooker. That’s consistently Munsters weakness in the business end of things.
I'm not following your logic.
"There's space in the suitcase for more stuff"
"Yes, but if you put stuff in the suitcase, you will have used more space"....
RG's deal runs until June '24 so there's two (RG, Nankivell) already on the books for next season.
Ah ya, crossed-purposes; I’m not arguing we should be allowed 3 more in those positions mentioned, but we clearly have scope for 1 more.
It won’t be at TH with Ryan coming back, but I’d love to see it in one of the other front-row positions.
(Fwiw, if we brought in 2, we’d still be level with Ulster).
If you bring in 2 or 3, you would have the most.
They’re not going to get the budget to bring in a “high standard” NIQ player in three of the most expensive positions to recruit rugby players, and nor should they.
But Nankivell is likely to be on significantly less than DDA and Fekitoa were.
We have the lowest number of NIQ players of any Province. We clearly have scope.
they wont be bringing in a 10 that cant play for ireland regardless of budget, id think the same for hooker tbh but that might be slightly more likely.
They’ve been allowed to sign an NIQ centre and already have an NIQ second row who is probably the most expensive player in Irish rugby.
I think they’ll likely get the budget to bring in one NIQ player in the front row.
I'd be very happy with it tbh; he'd presumably cost more than Jake Flannery, but there may be cause for that if Crowley and Carbery are likely to be involved with Ireland.
Covers 15 too, tho Haley is pretty robust injury-wise and Shane Daly is a more than capable back-up (his first call into the Ireland squad was after a number of assured performances there).
Certainly a player to make an offer for.
I'm not sure if he is a player that would necessarily accept an offer of the scale that Munster can offer a 3rd choice given that he is someone with 60+ professional caps.
I think the biggest thing for munster is to get a non Irish 10 hooker& tight head of a high standard asap
As a club we are not big enough to have a second string team that would compete/beat most teams when the international camps &tests are in progress.
Long term the director of rugby role should be to ensure a smooth transition of players& coaches over a7 -10 year period
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