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When will the Steyr be replaced?

dublincc2

I'm quite surprised that there isn't talk of replacing the Steyr AUG as the standard service rifle for the Defence Forces. Are there any plans or timeframe for when they will be replaced?

My preference would be to see them replaced with HK416. New Zealand replaced their Steyrs with them a few years back and they seem to be the most popular in Europe, as well as being a much more modern weapon.

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sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058291736/when-will-the-steyr-be-replaced

Given the US is playing around with changing calibre again going to 6.8mm why rush? See whether or not they fully commit to standardising on that going forward, which likely means NATO will eventually move towards that or whether they revert to the current standard. The Augs have had a recent enough upgrade program which combined with the amount of usage should give us a cushion before having to jump to a new rifle.

dublincc2

Actually it was an LMT AR-15 that the Kiwis replaced the Steyr with:

https://soldiersystems.net/2015/08/17/new-zealand-army-looking-replace-steyr-lewis-machine-tool-ar-15/

They aren't the only military that has replaced the Steyr so it is surprising that we are taking so long.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120459742#Comment_120459742

Gain why do you think that? The U.K. hasn’t started a full replacement program for the SA80 for example, even though they have seen far more usage than ours have. The Steyr is still a current NATO standard assault rifle with plenty of lifespan left in Irish service, given our history in replacing equipment I wouldn’t be surprised if it has 10-15 years left unless something radically changes…

Gatling

Even the swede's and Finn's are replacing their current issue rifles to sako AR-15 type rifles,the french ditched the FAMAS for the h&k 416s the Germans may finally be getting them too ,the ARW have transitioned to the 416 a few years ago,that leaves us and the Austrians who use it ,the Australian went with a upgraded slightly different variant,

But it's likely the Df would still be using the Aug in 15-20 years time

Larbre34

More modern, or more effective?

I don't care if a gun was built by John Browning himself so long as its durable, reliable, accurate, portable and practical for the private soldier issued with it.

The Steyr AUG remains all of those.

If you change a service rifle for the sake of it, you end up with the SA80.

Some other Countries change their service rifle and other mass produced items for economic reasons, as in, they either have a large firearms industry to begin with, or they get a deal for licenced production locally to use as an economic stimulus.

Ireland has no such motivations. As the lads have said, I don't see the Irish service rifle changing for a very long time yet and the motivation will either be a change in standardised NATO calibre or a step change in the battlefield technology built into a standard assault rifle, that requires a whole new frame.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120460323#Comment_120460323

Was it only supposed to be in service till 2025 ,some upgrades , shorter barrel and acog on a higher rail system wasn't exactly a major overhaul (open to correction) they only upgraded something like 6000 rifles, with deeper EU military integration being discussed I'd be surprised if everyone didn't move to the same AR-15 type platform especially with operational compatibility only us and the Austrians use Aug magazines

dublincc2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120460719#Comment_120460719

There are two factors to consider which makes the need to upgrade our equipment clear:

1. There will be a united Ireland by the mid-century. It is all but inevitable. I'm not one of these people who will say it's imminent or going to happen in five years, the 2040-50 timescale is realistically when it's going to happen. If in the worse case scenario things go titties up and loyalist paramilitaries launch an all-out insurgency we could be looking at a Donbass People's Republic scenario but in Antrim and Down, with loyalists taking over towns and large Protestant-majority areas in the northeast. How are we going to effectively combat this?

2. NATO/EU military. This is a possibility that is very much in the table whether you want to believe it or not. Nobody knows what is down the line in terms of global conflict, the Ukraine situation has shown that. If we don't throw out lot in with the EU defence force then I assume after a united Ireland we will join NATO, one of the reasons we refused to join was because of the UK in NI. Regardless of above, our equipment should be upgraded to be in line with the rest of the western world, and AR-15 type rifles are the way to go as long as 5.56 is still the norm.

billyhead

Sure how long did it take the DF to get rid of the FN 7.62? I can see the Steyr staying for time being.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120462462#Comment_120462462

They haven’t got rid of the FAL completely yet anyway.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120462307#Comment_120462307

In both cases you have suggested, demanding we change our Assault rifle for such situations is like debating what the scent of your car freshener is after you drive off a cliff. In either case the list of things that would come far before changing assault rifle is immense and dwarfs the topic.

The Steyr is still using NATO standard rounds and optics, it will be doing so for at least another couple of decades, it is perfectly serviceable for us and our needs under anything in that time frame, there is no need to changing rifle for the sake of it.

blackvalley

Why is that ? Is the HK 416 more efficient at killing / maiming human beings than the weapons you already have .

dublincc2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120462640#Comment_120462640

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120462897#Comment_120462897

The point in getting at us that the Steyr, while absolutely still a functional weapon, is very much old school, considering we are the only other operator aside from the Austrians and almost every other country in Europe is going for HK416-style rifles. Basically we should be seen to be modernising our equipment.

The only war Ireland will get involved in over the next few decades if we stay out of NATO is a loyalist rebellion/civil war in Ulster when reunification is achieved. Therefore counter-insurgency should be a primary objective for the DF.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120463081#Comment_120463081

Oh FFS “Old School”? It’s a NATO standard system that is fully capable of performing its role, there are no active reasons to change to anything else just because you think they look cooler or because the guy next door is buying it. The list of things we need to invest in just to stand still is long enough as it is and “keeping up with the Jones Assault Rifle” isn’t on it.

In your imaginary war, the Steyr is perfectly operational for any COIN style operations, and again the list of things we would need to invest in first puts a new rifle far down the list.

Its an adequate system that is still standard and does the job, if/when NATO finally decide what calibre they will standardise one next, then we should look at new hardware, till then like the FAL before it it will solider on.

blackvalley

Yeah but basically you are asking for something that is even more effective at killing/maiming human beings. Perhaps it can kill twenty five people per minute instead of the ONLY twenty that your current weapon can. Sad 😞

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120463162#Comment_120463162

That is the nature of military equipment and the world we live in whether we like it or not sadly.

blackvalley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120463202#Comment_120463202

Correct. Driven by weapons manufacturers and warmonger around the world.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120463237#Comment_120463237

And humans weren't human then the world would be fantastic, but we are what we are, sitting around defenceless doesn't magically make things peaceful.

mupper2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120463237#Comment_120463237

We deal with the World we've got not the Utopia we wish it was.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120463162#Comment_120463162

So your argument would be, that if a smaller and militarily weaker nation, like say Ukraine, were to be invaded and subjected to widespread destruction of their cities, by a larger and more powerful neighbour, like say Russia, that they should not have the best weapons that can be sourced to defend themselves?

Spare me the faux naivety.

blackvalley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120463499#Comment_120463499

Sorry but if you wish to discuss the current situation in Ukraine there are many threads on Boards dealing with that topic. However if you want to confine the discussion to why jingoistic military types always want bigger and better tools to kill each other with I am happy to engage in that discussion.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120463499#Comment_120463499

I see Maxim guns and Mosin Rifles have been used in Ukraine.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120463081#Comment_120463081

When you say "old school" what do you mean.

The Steyr AUG Mod 14 is an AUG A1 upgraded by the Irish Army, which was possible due to the modularity of the rifle.[45] It allowed the Irish Army to make modernisation upgrades. They replaced the original A1 housing/receiver group (with 1.5× optical sight) with an A3 housing/receiver group (with MIL-STD-1913 Picatinny rail on top and right side) allowing a modern optical sight to be fitted.[45] The Trijicon ACOG 4× sight was selected as the new optical sight of the rifle.[45] The rifle features the ALO "automatic lockout" trigger, which can also be found in the Australian and New Zealand versions. In 2014, they began issuing the rifle to its operational units.[citation needed]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_AUG#:~:text=The%20Steyr%20AUG%20Mod%2014,Army%20to%20make%20modernisation%20upgrades.

https://www.sandboxx.us/blog/steyr-aug-service-rifles-from-around-the-world/

dublincc2

My point is that we should upgrade to the rifle variant that is most prolific amongst peer countrires. I'm not saying that the Steyr is a bad weapon or an ancient relic, I'm simply suggesting that we should streamline our kit with similar militaries.

As it is if down the line the proverbial hits the fan the DF are going to be caught with their knickers lying on the floor and it will be too late to play catch-up then. In this respect, as part of the forthcoming upgrades and restructuring the rifle should be changed as part of the process. Futureporoofing, if you will. A new rifle system that won't need to be replaced for decades.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120463614#Comment_120463614

I got that. I'm asking why?

Catch up in what way? Streamline what exactly?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120463998#Comment_120463998

Not as simple as that. They changed the cartridge when going to the G36.

The G36 seems to have been undermined by stories of it overheating after sustained fire which largely seem to be untrue, or at least not any different to any other rifle of the same era. Not that anyone uses a G36 as a heavy machine gun in the first place.

It's all a bit ironic considering US plans to return to a battle rifle.

blackvalley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120463637#Comment_120463637

Ok so you have nothing to add to the discussion. That’s fine.

By the way I find the those who use passive aggressive terms like, kid, bud, pal etc in an effort to attack the poster generally have little to add to any discussion.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120463162#Comment_120463162

You're kinda barking up the wrong tree.

Lethality of a weapon is only one aspect in a list of criteria of why something comes in and out of service.

Are you worried someone might get hurt?

Signore Fancy Pants

A new primary weapon for the DF is very much not required.

You talk about "if", "but" and "when", however a new weapon, plainly for the sake of it, falls far far behind the need to fix the organisation.

The current rifle doesnt need a fix, and a new rifle wont fix anything.

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120474146#Comment_120474146

I'd agree with you SFP. Further I'd argue that given the AUG is reliable, robust, easy to use and recently upgraded.

That changing it out for another system unless also swapping out to a new service calibre would be a waste of money.

The US are adopting the 6.8mm cartridge and where the US leads on the ammo front, NATO follows.

There's far more pressing needs for the Army than replacing the AUG.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120460350#Comment_120460350

If magazine types are really an issue, and unless Irish stocks are oddly low I can’t see why that would be the case, then it seems far cheaper to just replace the stock with a NATO stock. I have one on my rifle. I do admit that the ability to use the same magazine as on an m4 is handy, but I pay for my magazines. Irish soldiers tend not to.

On the subject of the M4, the thing is basically still the same direct gas impingement rifle as the old M16, somewhat tweaked. Quite serviceable, all those years later, I see no reason the AUG shouldn’t be.

dublincc2

I have done some further research into this, there are other reasons why the DF needs to switch to the HK416 (or similar).

Bullpup rifles are generally considered inferior (Famas, SA80 etc) and not geared towards left-handed shooters. The Steyr needs to be disassembled in order to switch to a lefty configuration - not exactly the most expedient option then. The triggers are poor. The ergonomics are poor (instead of having everything in front of you, it’s further back at your neck) mag changes are harder etc.

The Steyr may be a perfectly serviceable rifle, but it just seems in light of proposed equipment upgrades across the DF that a slow phasing out and switchover to the HK416 is in order.