If being an unaligned country with a large army is no deterrent to Putin's ambitions is it time for ROI to join Nato?
Bloody hell. "America" has a very clear and commonly used connotation that does not refer to people from the American continent. "Europe" does not. Its a terrible analogy.
Georgia is on the periphery of Europe and _some people_ may not view it as part of Europe. Many others would.
I don't know anyone who wouldn't consider Ukraine Europe though so Russia clearly have invasionary boots on the ground in Europe.
Nope, Georgia is not considered to be Europe in common parlance.
It may be technically, but thats getting into semantics, which is why I referred you to the USA vs America thing.
Chileans can be technically referred to as Americans. Georgia can be technically referred to as Europe.
But if during some tension between Brazil and Chile I were to say 'oh Brazilian boots are on the ground in America' that would be deliberate hyperbolic nonsense.
Which is about the same as what you did with Georgia and Europe, saying 'oh Russia has boots on the ground in Europe'. Or some such deliberately misleading nonsense.
You know what you did. You got called out on it. Move on.
You don't recall because you don't pay attention.
The RAF scramble into our airspace on the regular because we can't/refuse to guard our airspace.
i agree that Ireland should become stronger and should stop relying on Europe, but I dont recall other countries having to militarily defend us
Re cables:
If Russia cut them in a nuetral country's waters that's not necissarily casus belli with NATO. Cut in NATO waters, well, that's casus belli. And casus belli with NATO = deterrance.
And that's just one threat vector.
I've been clear on my stance on Ireland and NATO from the very start of the thread btw. I'm not saying join for the heck of it, but it needs to be entertained, particularly if the calculations conclude that our neutrality results in unacceptable vulnerabilities for the state, its economy and our wellbeing as a country.
The immaturity is the nonsense woolly student union rhetoric about "war mongering" and "the great satan" (someone actually posted that in this thread)
But there are no threats to Ireland for which being a member of NATO or not would make the slightest difference.
Attacking an undersea cable used by all NATO countries but just happens to pass through Irish waters, it makes no difference if Ireland is in NATO to if NATO consider that to be an attack on them or not. The other end of the cable is connected to the US so why would it matter where the cable was cut?
Some kind of cyber attacks have already happened on various countries, and the geographic location of that country matters not. If you have the capability to take out some vital infrastructure of an enemy remotely by cyber attack then why would you direct that to Ireland rather than the UK for example? The chances of avoiding such attacks are exactly the same for either UK or Ireland. The response from either of being attacked would be just more money and people being spent on cyber security and the fixing of the damage done, not sending nukes to Moscow.
Ireland has no natural resources like oil to be worth invading for, and no oppressed Russian people who need rescuing from their evil Irish/ Nazi rulers. Whilst it does provide a useful stepping stone for an invasion of UK/ Europe, that only applies if you already have easy access to the Irish west coast without fear of your supply lines being easily picked off by any of the NATO countries you have to sail past to get there in the first place.
There might not be a good reason to not join NATO, but first it should be shown that there is a good reason to join NATO.
Don't join just because it's there.
No I didn't. Re-read my posts.
🤣
You have no standing to talk about engaging in semantics picking a seam of arguement of USA v America. In the English language, America is a commonly understood synonym for the USA and is used interchangibly.
Most people would identify Georgia as a European country and more importantly, Georgians regard themselves as such.
Too much US media. Its embarrassing, you're Irish, you're European, not American, stop tooting on Americas hotdog, have some dignity Ameriboos.
Have a joint or something, you're agitated.
You can believe what you like. I don't trust them one bit, they might not invade, but doesn't mean they aren't exploiting our vulnerabilities. Why not join a large defensive organisation. Pooled resources make sense, we need to grow up and pull our weight rather than expecting other countries to help us out all the time.
you said "boots on the ground" , what angle is that then?
It's not a simplistic understanding of Europe. You're the one engaging in that.
Once again, you're the one using the "invasion" angle.
Ill pick a lane the same day you tell me you'll never again refer to the United states of America, as simply 'America'.
Sell the semantic nonsense somewhere else, Georgia is not what people think of when they hear 'Europe'. Get a map, ask a stranger, see if they point within 1000km of Georgia.
Ireland is never going to be part of nato, theres a fact of life for you.
The only people cheering for nato here in Ireland are those overgrown men-children who can't get over their fascination with fancy military toys (as they see them).
Thats their real agenda, they don't care about international peace or internet cables, they just want fancy military tech to nerd out about, if we have to change our place in the world as a nation then they're ok with that. Got two missile ships and a tank for it, fair deal.
that's a very simplistic understanding of Europe. Ireland is a completely different country than those 3, there is absolutely zero evidence that Putin would ever want to invade Ireland of all places
He/she never used the word invasion. You inserted that.
There are threats to every country's security that fall short of invasion and that's been a theme for this 100+ page thread.
That's fear mongering
Ireland is under no potential threat of invasion by Russia
I haven't seen a good reason not to join. It would be niave to think little old Ireland isn't a target cuase we're neutral and friendly, bs to that. It makes sense to increase defense spending and be part of an organisation where idea's, surveillance and information is shared for the protection of the state and it's citizens. Russia might not be our neighbour, but that doesn't mean they aren't up to no good here and exploiting our neutrality and lack of properly funded defense forces.
"The US" is a political term, Europe is not. Pick a lane and stay in it, nobody's going to follow you around as you take the goalposts on a tour.
Georgia has always been culturally regarded as a European country and the Caucuses have always been regarded as the periphery of Europe. The name Georgia itself is derived from Greek and Georgians used the Greek script before they adopted their own. They are Europeans in Europe and always have been.
NATO exists at the option of its members, and none of them want to leave it nor do they want the US to abandon their commitments to the continent. Even the lonely far-left loopers in Germany (probably paid by the Kremlin) calling for US presence in Germany to go have abandoned that nonsense.
Get used to NATO, it's a fact of life in Europe.
27 countries have joined the EU common defense and 25 have joined pesco in the last 25 years.
Can't be relying on a country which elects the best president ever in the history of the world and space and the universe.
12 countries (soon 13) have joined NATO in the last 20 years, so it seems to be a very popular organisation - especially with countries within a certain distance from Russia. Small countries can't necessarily survive on their own, so it makes sense to find allies. I don't think the world is heading to a direction where military alliances are becoming less relevant.
We're at no realistic risk of invasion/attack from anyone. Joining a defensive alliance would be money down the drain. You don't buy car insurance if you don't own a car.
I don't have a problem with a small increase in defense spending but the money needs to be kept in the country. There's no reason we can't develop basic drones and loitering munitions like Turkey and Iran have done.
For not a lot of money would could develop a homegrown offensive cyber capability - we have no shortage of IT people and a lot of big tech companies are headquartered here so we could steal source code - bribe employees and whatnot - to help us develop exploits and backdoors. For a fraction of the cost of a few jet fighters and maintenance we could have the capability to turn the lights off in most countries, that's a compelling deterent.
I'd be curious to know how much land Russia has annexed since say the fall of the USSR vs how much land the US has annexed in that time.
On the cusp of candidate status is something very different to the common understanding of 'Europe'. Thats like being given a map and being asked to point to the US, only to then point at puerto rico ... i mean yes, technically, but try again.
As for Americas heft. Pre-Ukraime there were about 60k American personnel dotted around Europe. At the same time there were around 1.4 million military personnel of various European nations. (Americas heft is home in america).
Nato was just the coordination of this pool of European forces, since national divisions and interests require an external third party.
Nato was a pool float that bought Europe time. And I dont see it being necessary for much longer. Maybe 10 years. 20 max. EU can't not develop its own option, in a world of Dubyas and Donalds and America first.
Plus Russia is now a proven paper tiger. Lets see them finish up in Ukraine, and then try that sht in Poland.
Georgia is on the cusp of EU candidate status, get used to the idea of them of being part of "political Europe" because there is only one direction of travel there.
NATO has never been more relevant - From the North Sea to the Black Sea, big-brain Putinites have locked-in the USA's strategic presence in Europe for another 80 years. And everyone from London to Ankara knows that it's the American heft that makes the overwhelming deterrence work,
Tankies get pissed off with NATO precisely because it is such a powerful deterrant and it provides the security umbrella that makes all the nice stuff like the EU (something most people recognise is an overwhelming good) possible.
Its a cheap semantic trick to call Georgia Europe in this context.
Yes its geographically Europe, but not part of the commonly understood political Europe.
Ukraine, same. Only geographically Europe.
Mexico is technically American. Doesnt mean we call Mexicans Americans. Or say that Americas police forces are on the cartels books.
Nato is really only important in the baltics. Since the ussrs collapse Russia has lacked the economic backbone and leadership to make any large progess west. Nato was good to have in the past, but with the overwhelming population difference, economic power and military power of EU countries relative to the shambolic Russian fed, which cant even beat Ukraine, its starting to lose its relevance.
Poland, Germany, and France have announced huge defence budget increases. Once those investments manifest theres little for nato to be hanging around for.
Since the fall of the USSR, the Russian Federation has been flat-out engaging in elective wars from '91 to now in various countries. From Georgia and Chechnya to Tajikistan, Ukraine, Central African Republic, Syria and more besides.
It breaks Tankie brains when you tell them this. They are not good neighbours.
Ukraine, Georgia and Moldova, all 3 in Europe, all 3 not in NATO and all 3 have Russian boots on the ground.
Do you really think Putin would have invaded them, had all 3 been in NATO?
Lol. Yeah, Russia would definitely be sound to the Baltic States etc and definitely not invade were they not in NATO. Has no form for that kind of thing at all.
Right on man 😂
There is zero evidence that Putin would invade Europe if NATO wasn't around. That's the type of paranoia that makes you want to join NATO
You are a very far left person who thinks of themselves as a pacifist, probably vote no. 1 for the like of PBP/Solidarity or whatever they call themselves, or various far left independents if you are Irish and living here. That is your political ideology going on posts.
That usually goes with a childish, studenty view of world politics carried on into adulthood. You have the misunderstood and often mistreated "underdogs" (may cover likes of China/Russia/North Korea/Iran/left wing autocrats in Americas/assorted ragbags of Islamic extremists etc) vs out and out Dr Evil style cackling "baddies" (aka imperialist warmongers) like US & NATO members + Western Big Capitalists and corporations.
How else do you explain believing that because they joined NATO a week or so ago, Finland up and launching missiles at Moscow even "by accident" and starting a nuclear war is much more likely? It's certainly a lot less likely than Putin getting out of bed very much on the wrong side + Russia bombing Helsinki back to the stone age. Finland (public + politicians) considered those odds (did a re-calculation based on recent events in Ukraine), weighted pros and cons and went and joined NATO to increase their insurance cover.
Finland went rogue + joined the "black hats" team in your view, so gets tarred a dumb warmonger that might now accidentally spark WW3. History, the current context + past behaviour of the country vs Russia's own sorry record of unprovoked military aggression towards Finland (as Soviet Union) be damned.
It absolutely is. Has the penny not dropped yet that Moscow would be d*cking around militarily in all of Eastern Europe had eastern states not joined NATO? We share political insitutions and a common market with these states, and NATO is the one defending these places, and by-proxy: us. You can engage in delusional and magical thinking if you want, but it's hard cold fact.
Since Suez, Europe has not had credible independent defence against large state-actor threats like the USSR, and Russia (and China for that matter). NATO has underwritten the defence of Europe since the end of WW2. The USSR would have made its way to Calais and started lapping at the white Cliffs of Dover were it not for NATO. It boils the p*ss of cranks and rolling tobacco smoking tankies that's the case, but there's very litte room for other interpretations.
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