My own great grandmother had her baby aged 21 and took him (my grandfather) home with her to her widowed father to live in the main st of a puritanical mixed Protestant and Catholic village in Northern Ireland in 1901.
They’d been abandoned by the father of the baby who lived, and continued to live, further up the street. He happily ignored his own child for the rest of his life and no one was any the worse off.
There must have been ferocious gossip behind closed doors but she was tough and it all worked out in the end.
There is no doubt that the mothers and baby’s in the homes were put there by their own families and told not to come back.
The other element that we’re apparently not allowed to mention is that this happened all over the world in all societies with people of different religions and none.
To this day in certain rural African villages unattached pregnant girls are ceremoniously sent off into the jungle to die of exposure. But we have to pretend that Irish parents aren’t and weren’t cruel and heartless, it was a bigger boy made them do it situation.
Being sensitive and brushing the truth under the carpet has not served Irish society well.
Young women did not make themselves pregnant
If they were impregnated, then it was up to their families whether they went to M&B homes or not. We have enough stories from people who didn't, to know that alternatives were possible. IF the family wanted an alternative.
You have got to be on a wind up. You are being so disrespectful to those who suffered greatly in these places.
I suppose you believe women like this one:
were making it all up? That the forced adoption of her son didn't happen?
But of course, you want believe the likes of paper reports (easily falsified or "lost") and of inspectors and staff (lying to cover their own asses) over real life accounts.
You have no shame. Putting you on ignore as your posts are literally turning my stomach.
What about all the babies who ended up in a septic tank?
Was that a result of their own negligence or was it the neglect of those running the homes? Why were the babies discarded like human waste?
I’m very sorry. The pervasive narrative now is that Joanne Hayes and her family were pariahs not only in the country but in her own parish. This is very convenient and important to people who want to insist that the Ireland we live in now is oh so much better than the Ireland we left behind.
If course it isn’t “better” in a lot of ways it’s much much worse. The RCC were among the most critical of the Tribunal and how it treated Joanne, writing to the judge within days of her being in the witness box but you’ll not be allowed to say that because it just doesn’t suit.
You’re at nothing here trying to correct the know it alls most of whom don’t remember and probably weren’t born in the 70s/80s but who swallow every bit of propaganda they’re fed.
@[Deleted User] , Ignore the ignoramus.
I would say the Gardai got their DNA to confirm they were the parents before they arrested them. This is a murder investigation so would have gone to great lenghts. There was a report that DNA was obtained from rubbish left out.
Maybe have a think about the difference between a discussion form and a news site.
Relax, I was just asking. Haven't seen the news in a few days. Wondering was there any developments....
It is a discussion forum.
The criminal justice system is not a spectator sport so I doubt the Gardai will be updating us on the results.
The results will just become part of the investigation, as normal.
Any updates on this? The results will be well back by now.
Is it not more likely that the persons were arrested for the purpose of taking DNA from them after some information about them had come to light?
It was reported a while back that the person whos DNA matched in the trawl had implicated the relatives
The gardai must have something else as well though, if they’re sending files to the DPP and so on, somebody must have talked who had an idea what happened. Proving parentage isn’t much to go on and certainly won’t stand up in court. They can’t arrest people without something to go on, they could simply inform them of findings and interview them if they wanted to. The arrest alone affects a lot of people.
Though they called it the Unmarried Mother's Alliwance to make sure that there was still a stigma attached.
Yes…there were exceptions, especially if the girl’s family went out on a limb and just held up their heads and offered no apologies.
It was mostly the woman's own family though. I know of one family that bucked the norm. Lad worked in the local shops when he was young. Never heard anybody looking down on him, or saying a word.
Small towns were actually worse than the country.
This is true. I was a teenager in the 60s so have first hand experience of single pregnant friends who gave up their babies for adoption. It was society as a whole that influenced their decision. Every aspect of their lives would have been negatively affected if they kept the baby. Education and employment prospects were limited . Men didn’t want to be seen going out with you, let alone marry you. Neighbours looked down on you, and your family was stigmatised. The child would also be stigmatised as he or she grew up. So it wasn’t always that they were “forced” into adoption so much as that they really had no other option. When the single mother allowance came in the mid seventies it began the change towards at least giving some recognition and support.
A few members of AGS probably
Most not like that
The Indo Daily podcast has a good episode on the Kerry Baby Case. Very emotional journalists that witnessed the treatment of Joanne Hayes with real regrets.
"First port of call might not be the guards though"
In this particular tragedy, I have a feeling AGS will have already appeared in act one and will be there in the epilogue..
Most of the force was in the form of the norms at the time. I can't put an exact time on it, maybe about 1984 when they're was a dramatic fall off in women having their babies adopted. They found a freedom to say, no.
You got me there
Wasn't the BBC already at the house when cliff richards place got searched
Some of the officers got traumatized because he had his new album playing
They do happen in both of those jurisdictions. Sure NI had a problem wirh some members of the police providing information that led to sectarian murders.
More recently, I recall a massive media leak in relation to sexual assault allegations against Cliff Richard.
It is impossible to prove a negative, but the historical sources don't indicate that forced adoption was the norm or common. We have records of people who inspected the procedure, who were critical of the homes, who insisted that they never saw women having their babies taken without their explicit consent." M&B R pg 67. Adoption, like abortion, is traumatic, though, and many women did have regrets, and there were cases of women being pressured. In the earlier period of Mother and Baby Home history, there was inadequate counselling, which must have compounded regret. Although as a rule, it is impossible to know what happened where paper records are unavailable. There isn't a lot of evidence of forged signatures, but there are some forged birth certs e.g Mrs Keating, who was convicted of this in 1962; although criminal, forgery may have saved lives by pushing adoptions through and avoiding institutionalisation. That is not the same as forging consent to adoption, which I would not defend if it occurred.
It strikes me that I made a balanced, polite comment with sources and you responded you accuse me of twisting facts and denying history. No sources. Sadly facts don't care about our feelings. Honestly, read as much as you can about the topic. It is absolutely fascinating.
To say that these institutions “did plenty of good” amounts to not much more than a pithy attempt to justify their existence in the first place. They wouldn’t have been necessary at all had Irish people not wanted to maintain a veneer of “respectability” and supplying these institutions with residents who were ostracised from their communities. People in desperate situations generally do tend to be the easiest to exploit while portraying such exploitation as care. People knew what went on in these places, and families would often threaten their daughters with being sent there if they “brought shame on the family” by becoming pregnant out of wedlock.
But was my comment wrong? Sounds like you dont really have a rebuttal. Mother and Baby homes did an plenty of good. Of course people have scars and baggage, but scars like what you mention dont really undermine my point at all.
I didn't say disclosing details
I'd say people are always looking to disclose in a general way
According to a (not always reliable) wiki article, Ireland does actually recognise priest/confessee confidentiality.
Butler v Moore - Wikipedia
Priest–penitent privilege - Wikipedia
Don't think a priest is absolved of any responsibility to disclose, by the law of the land.
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