Reports do say that they "provided voluntarily DNA samples but I would think it is somewhat similar to voluntarily providing a breath sample at a roadside breathylizer test, refuse and you will very quickly be advised of your obligations.
Once arrested I expect the provisions of the Criminal Justice (Forensic Evidence and DNA Database System) Act 2014 https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2014/act/11/enacted/en/html would come into play.
Actually it was probably because of how Joanne Hayes was vilified by all and sundry because of utter incompetence and aggressive tactics of the gardai that were so bad it got Joanne Hayes to admit to a crime she did not do, that the real parents kept quiet.
And the manner in which they were arrested shows little has changed in the gardai.
No-one knows the back story, yet like Irish society back then, some people are vilifying this couple. In a way Irish society has not changed much either.
The spew of hatred by some including some posters here with no understanding or information is despicable in itself.
Assuming they're not the murderer(s) themselves, they covered up for the murderer for 39 years and were only identified because of the actions of someone else.
That's nothing to be proud of even if what happened to the Hayes family had not occurred.
So yes I think it's right that they have serious questions to answer and should be held accountable for their silence if nothing else.
A baby was stabbed to death. It's a pretty horrific crime. It's not like it was accidental or anything like that. And the number of wounds that were inflicted was so excessive.
The parents either did it or know who did. If they were living in fear of their lives, that's one thing but if they weren't then they're involved in a cover-up for a horrendous crime.
Having said that, maybe there was a mental health break and there was no malicious intent, but we simply don't know.
I personally have no sympathy for them but that's because I don't know the details. I also don't hate them because, once again, I don't have the details.
Until we know more, people will unfortunately draw their own conclusions either positive or negative against the people involved.
There is a banner headline in The Kerry's Eye this week proclaiming that the DNA proves the two are the parents.
Now The Kerry's Eye is a bit of a rag so I'm not sure how much is true, or who the source is, and I have no interest in buying it to find out more.
The Newstalk piece that is linked recently on this thread is using The Kerry's Eye as it's source.
So right now The Kerry's Eye is the only publication that is saying they are the parents.
Nothing official from the Gardai.
Obviously the Gardai may not be saying anything official for operational reasons seeing as files have been sent to the DPP.
Cover ups of violent infant homicides were common place amongst medical professionals, parish priests and gardai in the 80s? First I heard of it.
I never said Caherciveen was idyllic or full of imbeciles. You're putting words in my mouth
Joanne Hayes for the record, was not vilified by all and sundry. The local people supported her. The general public were horrified at how she and her family were treated.
Everything seems to leak here
Don't think that happens in UK or NI
First I heard of it.
That’s really not saying much tbh.
I didn’t put words in your mouth either. I was the person who said Cahirciveen was idyllic and full of imbeciles. Simplest explanation ‘n’ all that, lucky for the locals I guess that Jessica Fletcher didn’t settle in Cahirciveen, ye got stuck with the Keystone cops instead 😒
Can you highlight some examples of people on this thread "spewing hatred" please?
I doubt they would ever come forward if it wasn't from dna close relative trace aka a sibling of John giving dna
I feel for the siblings as I think they were not aware but the fact the parents kept quiet all this time is just wrong and paints them in bad light, an innocent family was "tortured"
Of course we don't know all the facts but I make no excuses of my feelings about the parents as they did wrong and stayed quiet, it's a very emotive case especially as a baby was murdered so violently
It would take a lot to live with it the guilt etc if you knew
First port of call might not be the guards though
Could be a priest to absolve yourself in a general way without divulging specifics
Don't think a priest is absolved of any responsibility to disclose, by the law of the land.
According to a (not always reliable) wiki article, Ireland does actually recognise priest/confessee confidentiality.
Butler v Moore - Wikipedia
Priest–penitent privilege - Wikipedia
I didn't say disclosing details
I'd say people are always looking to disclose in a general way
But was my comment wrong? Sounds like you dont really have a rebuttal. Mother and Baby homes did an plenty of good. Of course people have scars and baggage, but scars like what you mention dont really undermine my point at all.
To say that these institutions “did plenty of good” amounts to not much more than a pithy attempt to justify their existence in the first place. They wouldn’t have been necessary at all had Irish people not wanted to maintain a veneer of “respectability” and supplying these institutions with residents who were ostracised from their communities. People in desperate situations generally do tend to be the easiest to exploit while portraying such exploitation as care. People knew what went on in these places, and families would often threaten their daughters with being sent there if they “brought shame on the family” by becoming pregnant out of wedlock.
It is impossible to prove a negative, but the historical sources don't indicate that forced adoption was the norm or common. We have records of people who inspected the procedure, who were critical of the homes, who insisted that they never saw women having their babies taken without their explicit consent." M&B R pg 67. Adoption, like abortion, is traumatic, though, and many women did have regrets, and there were cases of women being pressured. In the earlier period of Mother and Baby Home history, there was inadequate counselling, which must have compounded regret. Although as a rule, it is impossible to know what happened where paper records are unavailable. There isn't a lot of evidence of forged signatures, but there are some forged birth certs e.g Mrs Keating, who was convicted of this in 1962; although criminal, forgery may have saved lives by pushing adoptions through and avoiding institutionalisation. That is not the same as forging consent to adoption, which I would not defend if it occurred.
It strikes me that I made a balanced, polite comment with sources and you responded you accuse me of twisting facts and denying history. No sources. Sadly facts don't care about our feelings. Honestly, read as much as you can about the topic. It is absolutely fascinating.
They do happen in both of those jurisdictions. Sure NI had a problem wirh some members of the police providing information that led to sectarian murders.
More recently, I recall a massive media leak in relation to sexual assault allegations against Cliff Richard.
You got me there
Wasn't the BBC already at the house when cliff richards place got searched
Some of the officers got traumatized because he had his new album playing
Most of the force was in the form of the norms at the time. I can't put an exact time on it, maybe about 1984 when they're was a dramatic fall off in women having their babies adopted. They found a freedom to say, no.
"First port of call might not be the guards though"
In this particular tragedy, I have a feeling AGS will have already appeared in act one and will be there in the epilogue..
The Indo Daily podcast has a good episode on the Kerry Baby Case. Very emotional journalists that witnessed the treatment of Joanne Hayes with real regrets.
A few members of AGS probably
Most not like that
This is true. I was a teenager in the 60s so have first hand experience of single pregnant friends who gave up their babies for adoption. It was society as a whole that influenced their decision. Every aspect of their lives would have been negatively affected if they kept the baby. Education and employment prospects were limited . Men didn’t want to be seen going out with you, let alone marry you. Neighbours looked down on you, and your family was stigmatised. The child would also be stigmatised as he or she grew up. So it wasn’t always that they were “forced” into adoption so much as that they really had no other option. When the single mother allowance came in the mid seventies it began the change towards at least giving some recognition and support.
It was mostly the woman's own family though. I know of one family that bucked the norm. Lad worked in the local shops when he was young. Never heard anybody looking down on him, or saying a word.
Small towns were actually worse than the country.
Yes…there were exceptions, especially if the girl’s family went out on a limb and just held up their heads and offered no apologies.
Though they called it the Unmarried Mother's Alliwance to make sure that there was still a stigma attached.
The gardai must have something else as well though, if they’re sending files to the DPP and so on, somebody must have talked who had an idea what happened. Proving parentage isn’t much to go on and certainly won’t stand up in court. They can’t arrest people without something to go on, they could simply inform them of findings and interview them if they wanted to. The arrest alone affects a lot of people.
It was reported a while back that the person whos DNA matched in the trawl had implicated the relatives
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