Following on from here
New Munster chat thread folks. warning deserved there. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=109477571#post109477571
Id have looked to not re sign one of Archer/Ryan but unless theres a very good replacement then you need both.
Yep, particularly with Knox and Salanoa's injury history.
As head coach how much can he change in year? He wont have been able to get any real signings. We have several young players but many simply cant stay fit enough long enough to get into main squads. Not much Rowntree can do about that.
Unless he was going to pull on the boots himself, I don't know what he can do about it at this stage in the season.
Loughman is a big loss here (I think Kilcoyne has had a really poor season from a scrummaging perspective).
For an ex front rower as a manager, our front row and sub front row are a load of bollo$
POM V EE - can’t wait to see how that pans out. Hopefully they turn off the microphones in case children are watching
It's brilliant that Munster finally have a coach who isn't afraid to make big decisions and select on form. Hats off to Rowntree.
Fairly formidable on paper alright. And with POM and Etzebeth on opposing teams, it's almost certain there'll be a bit of niggle. Sharks currently 5 point favourites but it'll be more unless our defence is significantly better than last week. Hopefully we'll see a reaction, falling on the right side of any cards might decide it.
Some amount of Boks players there, it's going to be a tough game, hopefully, we get the start we gave Glasgow last week.
Delighted to see that second row and the half backs. Happy to see Scannell back too, set piece should be much improved from last week.
Missing Beirne though so could be tough without him.
CELL C SHARKS
15. Boeta Chamberlain, 14. Werner Kok, 13. Lukhanyo Am, 12. Rohan Janse van Rensburg, 11. Makazola Mapimpi, 10. Curwin Bosch, 9. Jaden Hendrikse, 1. Ox Nché, 2. Bongi Mbonambi, 3. Thomas du Toit, 4. Eben Etzebeth, 5. Gerbrandt Grobler, 6. Siya Kolisi (c), 7. Vincent Tsh*tuka, 8. Sikumbuzo Notshe.
Replacements:
16. Kerron van Vuuren, 17. Ntuthuko Mchunu, 18. Carlu Sadie, 19. Emile van Heerden, 20. Phendulani Buthelezi, 21. Grant Williams, 22. Ben Tapuai, 23. Thaakir Abrahams
I actually laughed aloud reading that team... they will score a billion points if we allow them any ball, any scrums... any lineouts... etc...
They shut me up real nice.
It's a ballsy move and tbh I'm delighted, one way or another we're going to know a lot more about Crowley as an out half by tomorrow evening
If munster win this, away in south africa, with Crowley at 10, it could be the milestone for him taking the 10 jersey from carbery.
Big move delivered, FFF.
Crowley to start at 10 with Carbery on the bench, and Snyman to start. 6-2 split. Frisch back. Casey ahead of Murray.
Munster: Mike Haley; Calvin Nash, Antoine Frisch, Malakai Fekitoa, Shane Daly; Jack Crowley, Craig Casey; Dave Kilcoyne, Niall Scannell, Roman Salanoa; Jean Kleyn, RG Snyman; Peter O’Mahony (C), John Hodnett, Gavin Coombes.
Replacements: Diarmuid Barron, Josh Wycherley, Stephen Archer, Fineen Wycherley, Jack O’Donoghue, Conor Murray, Joey Carbery, Alex Kendellen.
In fairness, most of the comments that I see of Carbery are much as you say - that's his performances are okay to good, but just a little short of the top-class level Ireland and Munster want in a fly half.
Conway being the perfect example.
The pass was a complete momentum killer, tho. To me, it's a bigger error in the context of the game, than just looking at the specific incident in isolation.
Munster had just gotten a foothold back in the game, with Casey playing very well. That's where you want your experienced 10 to impose himself on the game. And iirc, didn't Carbery let the ball bounce as well before throwing that pass too? And was a tackler (with Hodnett) on the try-scorer?
For me, after the scrum-penalty advantage, Daly and Kendellen were most responsible but Carbery had a fairly major role in it too, starting from kick-off after Casey's try.
See, that's where you're wrong Neil, I was notorious for pointing fingers and passing the buck during my playing days.
Carbery gets the stick for an unsympathetic pass. You could argue Coombes wasn't tuned in, but then Carbery shouldn't have thrown it.
But once the balls breaks from the ensuing scrum, Munster had the numbers to snuff out the attack with no issues, and it's not Carbery's fault they didn't.
If Carbery is out of the national squad for his rubbish defence, as you very reasonably suggest, then the sort of effort we saw from certain Munster forwards in that phase might give some insight as to why they're on the outside too.
Always the responsibility of the passer to give a good pass. Carbery doesn’t have the vision to be an outhalf IMHO.
. He has a very good step and can unlock defenses. But teams figured out his step a long time ago so are not surprised by it anymore.
Who could have watched him waltz through the New Zealand defense in Chicago and not think “this is the dawn of a new era for Irish rugby “? But it hasn’t worked out that way.
nothing to do with where he’s from or any of that. He pulls on a Munster jersey- he’s a Munster player- end of.
I think Munsters poor start to the season and lack of centres has got in the way this season.
Very much agree. You can probably add injury issues too, which have seen Crowley get time at 15 as well.
I'd agree in the main with that; there's an element of the unknown with Crowley, vs certainty with Carbery. Certainly from an attacking perspective, and place-kicking too, where Carbery is superior imo, albeit he's not having a brilliant season in that regard. And at this point in the season, I can see the reasons to continue with Carbery
But, imo, that element of the unknown wanes when you look at defence; my own impression is that Crowley is a much, much stronger defender. Certainly significantly more robust in the tackle.
It would be madness, Crowley has all the attributes to be a top level 10. I think Munsters poor start to the season and lack of centres has got in the way this season. Long term he will be Munster and possibly Ireland’s 10. With only the unknown of Prendergast being a real challenge there in the next World Cup cycle.
I don't think the pass was great at all but it was compounded by Coombes being momentarily unsighted as Casey was in the way. Carbery has to take a chunk of responsibility just as Coombes, Hodnett and Daly should take ownership of their defensive errors in scoring of the try.
I've defended Carbery's performance but I don't think he's particularly excellent as an outhalf. He's too indecisive overall where you can see others knowing exactly what their go to options are before they even receive the ball. Carbery sometimes goes for his pass and then delays, checks back and tries to make the gain line himself which has long been an issue as it leads to slow ball and no outhalf in the backline. I didn't think that was the case on Saturday.
There will always be something of a confirmation bias at play when people have their minds made up on a player and once public opinion starts to swing, you're pissing into the wind if you want to disagree. People will see what they want to see. I heard one commentator this week give out that he had a situation with slow ball in the first half and was thinking he should kick it away but instead he tried to put width on it, Glasgow intercepted the pass but spilled the ball forward. I thought I was seeing things so checked it again. It was Fekitoa who was at first receiver. People see what they want at times.
Once a new young outhalf came along, people are going to jump onto that train. Crowley looks more assured. He is decisive in his play and there's no lack of confidence there.
That doesn't necessarily make for a great outhalf though. He still makes plenty of errors but, because of his age and the buzz around him, people will be more forgiving of those and rightly so as he develops experience. He threw an intercept himself at the weekend and a few passes caused the carrier to check or slow their run so there's certainly scope to get better and if he does iron out those issues, he'll be a really good outhalf. But he needs to play 10 and get moving now. He's not exactly an academy player anymore (only 6 months younger than Ben Healy) so that goodwill will start to run out in the next year, I'd imagine.
i dont think any of this makes sense really tbh but i would definitely think it unlikely that a NIQ 10 gets brought into any of the provinces anytime soon
Why would Munster look at a NIQ 10 without at least trying someone like Crowley, I mean he's been 3rd choice for Ireland in the recent 6Ns
I really don't see the rush to dump on players
Not sure that the path to the No.10 Jersey for Crowley at munster and ireland is certain, I think he may end up playing at centre. And just as carbery was seen as the heir apparent to sexton and the reality set in that Ross byrne is the best 2nd option I can see a scenario where Prendergast overtakes both in the next 3 years. Munster would be better off looking for a proven NIQ 10.
Some people do seem to have it in for him though, mainly from what I've seen online, because he's not from Munster.
Ah, I dunno, I can’t say I’ve come across that myself, and I really hope that’s not the case (and certainly isn’t from me).
There’s many a non-Munster man has been embraced over the years.
i cant speak for others, but my reasons for not being a big fan of carbery have little to do with him not being from munster. the only semblance of a link to that for me is that i think he has been shoehorned into the team/squad ahead of what i think/thought are better options who happen to be from the province.
It's that very shock that sent me looking for any trend in his data (for Ireland) that might explain Farrell's decision. I was expecting it to be on the attacking side of things, but instead saw some possible evidence that it's a defensive risk that led to his omission. And then a few things clicked - Farrell being defense first, and the recent games where Munster were quite open in midfield. The only reason I brought up "that pass" was that management at 10 might have implications for conceded points.
I'm certainly not out to get him. I commented at the time that he'll likely get heat but that the issue was more with Munster's 10-12 axis. One of him or Crowley back to 10, and we'll look an awful lot better. But over time, if the defensive side of things are the issue, Crowley will eventually get the shirt.
It is the forwards fault for conceding that try. The ball to Coombes was fine. He shouldn't have dropped it.
Then the pack gave away a scrum pen.
Then the forwards failed to defend a very soft try.
I was standing in that corner, metres from the play and literally nobody around me blamed Carbery for the try. We were all complaining about the awful defence. It wasn't until I came online on Sunday that I realised that Carbery's pass seemed to be an issue.
People have taken his missed kicks against Tolouse and decided that he's useless. His all round game outside of the kicking was excellent that day. It was a shock to most people (including the pundits) that he wasn't picked for the 6N squad, because he was playing some of his best rugby in ages.
To borrow from Life of Brian, he's not the Messiah, nor is he a naughty boy. Some people do seem to have it in for him though, mainly from what I've seen online, because he's not from Munster.
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