You're right dreadful things were covered up years ago and the blind eye was given to what was happening. I completely agree.
Where the Kerry Babies case is different though is that it was a very public story that was never forgotten and another woman and family were accused in the wrong. It was revisited by the media time and time again. In the 90's Ireland began to change its views towards single mothers. This mother could have came forward at any time over the last 39 years - I dont believe she murdered her baby but she could reveal the story - she is more than likely a victim in this story too. Its possible the person(s) who murdered baby John are now dead or very elderly. Any threats that were made towards her at the time of the birth would have diminished over the years. If her family were involved chances are relationships became strained over the years with the trauma of this event.
The mother of baby John it seems was or is prepared to stay silent for the rest of her life. Over the last 39 years she or he should have done the right thing and come forward - this may have allowed Joanne Hayes to have lead a better life than she has done. Shame on them for not coming forward - every year of silence has made this case worse for them.
I think jumping to the conclusion of a massive cover up involving local gardai, the parish priest and local GP is a bit bonkers when there are far simpler, plausible explanations. It is a discussion group though so I guess it should all be entertained.
It has now been confirmed that both those arrested are the biological parents of the baby. Who murdered him will only be determined if one or both of them decide to cooperate.
I feel it's likely there were rumblings in the family for their living child to volunteer DNA. It's a very close familial match and was basically like striking gold for the cold case team.
As an aside, you can't tell a woman has given birth just by looking at her. You would need to examine her intimately. Not something gps do routinely. Makes perfect sense that girl was referred further
The couple who were arrested are confirmed as the parents of the baby.
The most simple explanation is most often the correct one.
Sounds more like the explanation you come up with yourself, is the correct one. Doesn’t take genius levels of intellect to understand that much.
The point was that the Caredoc was oblivious to the fact that only minutes earlier, the patient had given birth! That they were referred to UHW for an examination is nothing to do with failing to notice that the patient had just given birth!
I don’t care that your family have lived in Cahirciveen for generations, neither your family nor Cahirciveen itself are unique in any respect. What was unique about this case specifically is that the evidence was discovered purely by chance. Similarly in the case in Dalkey, the body of a baby was discovered purely by chance -
The body of the newborn girl who police believe was the woman's first baby, was discovered in a laneway in Dun Laoghaire, just over a mile from her home.
Two 11-year-old boys collecting seaweed on the beach were looking for a plastic bag. Seeing one on the ground, they opened it to find the baby's body, wrapped in newspapers and soaked in blood.
People didn’t believe her at the time -
Some elderly neighbours living on the quiet estate said they were aware of the woman's story.
"She used to tell schoolfriends about it when she was a girl but no one hardly believed her," said one woman. "Something should have been done about this years ago."
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2005/jun/30/ireland
It’s true what you say that some people at least, or some parents, will confide in their children in their later years, deathbed confessions are a thing, but what happens more often is people would rather abhorrent incidents from their past would remain buried and there be no evidence found that would indicate they knew more than they let on.
Agreed. The possibility of a long term cover up surviving until now is almost non existent if any few locals knew.
The possibility of the pregnancy and birth taking place elsewhere must be considered as a very real possibility, thus no local knowledge.
Nonsense. I've no idea what that link proves. She was referred straight to hospital by caredoc where it was immediately identified she'd given birth. No big cover up. GPs don't tend to perform internal examinations on women presenting with constipation or urine retention.
My family have lived in caherciveen for generations. There was no big cover up involving multiple local representatives. It was the talk of the town at the time and continued to be discussed over the years. Like I said, there were many rumours. The GP at the time was extremely competent and professional. I believe he was the only GP in the country to have delivered over 1000 with no recorded deaths of mothers or infants. He wasn't the type to act immorally.
The most likely explanation is a well concealed teenage pregnancy and birth that was only discovered by someone other than the mother on day 3 who became very angry and unleashed it out on the baby. The attack on the infant was brutal.
However, in this investigation any family with that kind of history or behaviour would have been quickly identified in the community and checked.
I think you’re being incredibly charitable in asserting that anyone neglected to mention a local, pregnant teenager to Gardaí during a huge investigation into a murdered baby.
@Neyite post isn’t at all far fetched; it’s pretty much on the nose, for any community, be they urban or rural. The point being that people knew what went on, but they chose to ignore it and turn a blind eye, and they stayed quiet about it because nobody wanted to bring any trouble on themselves. It wasn’t that anyone neglected to mention it, they purposely said nothing.
What Neyite’s referring to wasn’t just common knowledge, it was common practice. It’s why even today there are locals who don’t want to cooperate with any investigation, because they don’t want to be reminded that they knew everything, and did nothing, and they don’t want people knowing that they did nothing in spite of knowing exactly what happened and what was going on.
It still happens to this day that people know things and they don’t say anything. It’s not even that young girls and women conceal their pregnancy, if they’re even aware of it themselves in the first place, it’s that some girls and women will panic and do something they would normally consider unconscionable, like giving birth and then trying to get rid of the evidence -
https://www.breakingnews.ie/amp/ireland/mother-jailed-for-three-months-over-manslaughter-of-baby-left-in-bin-1330126.html
There’s two explanations as to why the medical professional in the Caredoc facility didn’t realise the patient had just given birth - they’re either incredibly incompetent or, they knew, but didn’t want to know.
Oh, I did! I took the rest of the day off work and went straight home and told my mother! Who (as I knew she would be) was my rock. They did try to contact me several times after that, but my mother ran them.
My daughter is now almost the same age as I was then, it's hard to believe.
And that was exactly what was resiled from in 1966!
It has been reported by a number of reputable sources that this couples arrest was triggered because their living biological child's DNA identified one or both of them as the parents. So we do know the mothers age with a certain degree of certainty. She was a teenager, most likely an older teenager when her partner is now in his 60s
Most definitely would beat the tooth fairy. :)
That’s a question only those involved in the murder of Baby John can answer.
And why then the decision to kill?
Eye opening. I thought their only remit was to try and intercede to prevent abortions- a lot more sinister it seems- maybe a future public enquiry looms?
Loueze, It was good to have the option there but Cura were desperate to get their hands on those "valuable" babies. My Mam brought me to see them in the early stages of my pregnancy. It was drilled into me how beneficial adoption would be for everyone but I was adamant I wasn't going that route. I thoughf it had all been put to bed till 2 days after I had my baby the same lady from Cura arrived into hospital to see me. I thought how nice of her till I realised she really, really wanted him to be put up for adoption!! I ran her!! The proudest moment of my life!!
Now, I,ll shut up. I hope you made a decision you are happy with. Wishing you well.
He was killed on the third day, discovered 2 days later.
It’s what happened in those First 3 days, was he a normal healthy baby, was he fed, suckled? Where was he kept?
Why “5 days” I wonder - what happened between giving birth and 5 days later?
Why did someone feel there was a “need” to kill a newborn child when there were many confidential ways to provide that child with a good home and family?
I don’t think I want to go there with the speculation on this thread but where my mind has wandered to already isn’t a good place. Hopefully all facts will be revealed in the next year.
It’s not that hard to understand.
I was simply saying that we can’t even make any determination at this point about the mother’s age.
I wasn’t insulting her or passing judgement.
The only definite thing we can say about Baby John is that he was murdered at 5 days old.
Movie about this on netflix at the moment - Yara
Check out how they caught the Golden state killer after a few decades. I wouldnt want to be sitting at home thinking i had got away with a murder these days.
I remember a case I read about a few years ago. It was in a remote italian village. And a girl was murdered. They had no idea who the culprit was but they had his DNA profile. So they asked everyone in the village to volunteer a DNA sample. Since it was a small area they had a feeling that if enough people came forward they'd be able to figure out what family the perpetrator was from. It worked and that's how they caught the guy.
Here's the story if anyones interested.
lol yes.
I'm 100% certain that biological parents are related to their children. But I was pretty certain you could tell how closely related the parents are to each other. So I just googled it and it's possible to get an idea. So the police might have ruled it out already.
https://www.thetech.org/ask-a-geneticist/identifying-incest-dna
You think RTE would let themselves be open to any legal however remote by allowing the solicitor on a program where anything can be said especially in an on going investigation
To each other?
One thing. I'm pretty certain a DNA test can tell if parents are related.
Perhaps it was a case of "Nothing to see here, Look over there" and off they all went to Abbeydorney.
If it was a hospitals/doctors check that brought Joanne Hays to the attention of the Gardaí I find it hard to believe Baby John was born with no medical intervention whatsoever and the pregnancy going unnoticed in Cahersiveen. It must have been a family with great power and influence in the town.
No doubt the adoptive parents would be expected to make a substantial "donation" 🙄
I wonder how many women went off to Britain for an abortion after a chat with Cura telling them how a baby would ruin their life? Doesn't really seem to have been the most intelligent strategy in retrospect does it...
Locals could have had really important information that has now been forgotten or the people with it moved on or have died since 84.
The gardai completely f**ked the case up by going out very early claiming to have had it solved and coercing evidence from the Hayes family. People in the area may have speculated baby john's mother was actually the mother if it had been unsolved but would have thought nothing of their information once they herd Joanne Hayes family had confessed to dumming of baby John shortly after he had been found.
I'm moaning that the very reasonable discussion has turned into an OT debate whether Mary of Magdalene was a prostitute or not.
We're only one step removed from arguing if the Easter Bunny would beat the Tooth Fairy in a boxing match.
This is a discussion group.
It's amazing how people keep turning up moaning that people are on a discussion forum, well, discussing things.
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