The DUP refusing to let Sinn Fein have First Minister means a December Assembly Election. Will the numbers change in a fresh Election?
What parties seats are vulnerable or who might make gains in any constituencies ??
You are quite correct. IF, and it is a big capital IF, we are to have a united Ireland that welcomes all, we will need to get rid of the tricolour, which despite its origins, is clearly perceived as sectarian, and we will also have to reduce the influence of the Irish language in daily life. This will be very difficult for republicans, but their politicisation of the language has sadly produced this outcome.
Unfortunately the Irish language is already politicised in N. Ireland. Most protestants there do not regard it as part of their culture. Only 0.3% of people in N. Ireland use it as their daily language. Yes, we know some - if not many - Republicans in N. Ireland are pushing very hard to increase the use of Irish language by everyone there, not just themselves. It has meant that in N. Ireland people associate the Irish language with Republicanism, the same as people associate the Irish flag with Republicanism, having seen it draped on IRA coffins etc. Even many originally thought the Irish flag was supposed to represent orange and green with white (peace) in-between.
I think all reasonable people would agree putting up an official Council sign (where the dominant language on the sign is Irish) at the entrance to a Protestant village in N.I. is not the smartest thing to do. It is only going to result in tensions raised / people antagonised.
At least some good has come out of it, the good people of Tubermor have a small taste of what it would be like living in a U.I., under the Tricolour, and where as it stands a pass in Irish in the leaving cert,( after studying Irish for 12 / 13 years or whatever at school ) is generally required for entry to NUI universities like UCD, UCG, UCC etc. And in the case of a UI, if they do get in to those universities, and get on the soccer team ( not even GAA team which would be even more Republican ) will their team-mates be chanting Uh Ah Up the RA? And you expect the people of Tubermor to be willing to enter a U.I.? All of the victims of violence in Tubermor during the troubles were Protestant. I think they would be made feel unwelcome and be out, unfortunately, in the case of a U.I.
I think if I were living there I would not want to trust the government of a hypothetical U.I. anyway.
Personal anecdote from me.
My eldest in his early twenties, went to a Gael Scoil and is proficient in Irish as are all his former school friends and all of them now showing on the census. Multiply that out to all Gael Scoil graduates and the numbers are growing rapidly.
A way has been found to preserve and encourage one of our official languages, rich in heritage and art. That's a good thing which will enrich us all culturally. It already is, if you look at An Cailin Cuain etc.
This is our state under pressure from a vociferous minority language lobby enforcing or attempting to enforce what they couldn't through persuasion. And that's the result of a sloppy aspirational constitution article.
As regards census stats, nobody and I repeat nobody except the most deluded believes the statistics concerning ability to speak Irish.
Sure I have an interest in the language, did 14 years of it in national & secondary education. Have many words, phrases and more than a grasp but I would never claim to have an ability to conduct more than a rudimentary conversation in Irish. And other than a hobby interest, have no need or aspiration to.
Exaggeration.
Where does it say 'must have'?
One of the key objectives of the committee is increasing the number of staff in public bodies competent in Irish, so that by 31 December 2030, at least 20% of staff recruited are competent in Irish.
It's an objective, not mandatory.
ok, I genuinely wasnt aware of that. But reading your link it all sounds a bit aspirational to me, and I don’t see any mention of re-imposing the Irish exam for entry.
It's already happening, 20% of recruits by 2030 must have Irish, it will go up again after that.
I would absolutely feel confident that no Government in the event of a United Ireland, including a Sinn Fein one, is not going to impose a requirement that Irish is mandatory for any public sector or Government job. Not going to happen. I know some people want to present the Shinners as the reincarnation of the 1933 Nazi party, but they wouldn’t have a hope of getting elected on a platform of any discrimination against Protestants or Unionists. In fact I think if there was unity it would go the other way, and people would be falling over themselves trying to include and accommodate unionists.
You are incorrect. The row-back has already started. Read the Official Languages Act.
"One of the key objectives of the committee is increasing the number of staff in public bodies competent in Irish, so that by 31 December 2030, at least 20% of staff recruited are competent in Irish."
"The 2021 Act also provides that within 3 months of the National Plan being submitted to the Government, the Minister shall specify the dates that Irish shall become the working language of the offices of any public bodies or class of public bodies in certain Gaeltacht areas and that all services provided by these public bodies shall be provided through Irish."
"While it is unclear what the necessary language standards will be, or how this will be assessed, these changes are likely to have a substantial effect on recruitment into the public sector"
Don't take my word, take the word of a leading law firm.
Ok, if you are going to continue to sectarianise this, I'll leave you to it.
They didn't say 'they knew' in fact, if you bothered to research the proper things they very clearly say this:
Whatever the reason was, at the moment it remains a mystery.
They also, if you had bothered to research, presented other evidence proving that Irish language education was happening in the area,
. and thanks to the efforts of Lord Aberdeen, Irish was put on the Intermediate curriculum. In 1908, due to the work of McArthur and others, Irish was re-introduced to Queen’s College, for the first time since 1861. The number of schools teaching and pupils learning Irish throughout Ulster also grew steadily over the years: In 1899, the total number of pupils achieving a pass in Irish was 1317, compared to 371 in 1887. The following year, the system of assessment changed, but the numbers continued to grow from 2256 in 1901 to 31741 in 1906.
Now could you answer the question asked?
Just to be clear here. You are saying that the 5799 people mentioned here were illiterate and on the basis of that the people behind Turas are erronously drawing funds?
The District Electoral Divisions of Pottinger and Victoria (part of) comprise most of inner east Belfast. In 1911, they had a combined population of 104814 of which 5,799 (5.5%) reported they could speak Irish. The majority of these were Protestants.
RIs there not supposed to be consultation with local residents? If it is as you say it is, given the Irish language in that sign is much more prominent than the Irish we have in the signs here (south of the border), it is indeed worrying that "the majority of parties" wish to antagonize Protestants like that, people who clearly do not want it in their village in N. Ireland. If they think that is bad, it will be much worse for them in a U.I., have no doubt about that.
When you look at statistics from 110 years ago, and you find "corrections" on census returns, it is difficult at this point in time to know exactly what went on. Did the 87 people who ticked Irish language and then changed it (or had it changed, perhaps by someone else?) do so by mistake? Were they literate? I do not know. I suspect you or the 2 individuals whose aim is to promote the Irish language and who done the study and who found 87 individuals in east Belfast 110 years ago who spoke Irish could not know for certain either. Statistics are open to interpretation when it comes to Irish. In our Irish census many hundreds of thousands may tick the box that they can speak Irish when all they may know is a cupla focail. Who t.f. cares.
The 'government' of the state they live in now, with the majority of parties in the devolved government there, AGREED to the legislation that allowed that sign to be erected.
The pertinent question would be, are belligerent Unionists going to obey the laws of anywhere if they can't obey the law of the country they are supposed to be loyal to?
Given that
(a) nationalists like Sinn Fein want to increase the use of Irish ( which is fair enough, I studied Irish for 13 or 14 years or whatever at school, it is a democratic country, I have nothing against people who want to learn Irish as long as they do not push it down other peoples throats )
(b) it would not be impossible to have a SF government in the event of a United Ireland : if fairness, while I am not a supporter I will acknowledge they have a lot of support both North and South currently, and are probably Ireland biggest party in many if not every way. ( financially, votes, number of members etc)
(c) life is deliberately made uncomfortable for the residents of the Protestant village in N.I. by placing an official sign with the first words - you could say the dominant words - as Gaelige (in Irish)
if , in the hypothetical situation of an all Ireland state, and you were a "typical" resident of that village, would you trust the government of an all Ireland state not to make life very uncomfortable for you?
I think the Council and the nationalists who are pushing so hard for the Irish language in N. Ireland are actually doing more damage than good in their quest for an United Ireland.
I would say at least 5799 people were illiterate 110 years ago, given that in Ireland only a few years ago The OECD Adult Skills Survey shows that 17.9% or about 1 in 6, Irish adults are at or below level 1 on a five level literacy scale. At this level a person may be unable to understand basic written information."
I gave you the link to the above statistic.
As long as Ireland is in the EU and signs up to the ECHR they simply couldn't do it, I'd imagine.
So your claim is that 5,799 people were illiterate when completing their census returns?
That's what you have to negate the work done by this project?
As I said in my first post, you are talking about the past when it comes to Government jobs. No Irish Government is going to row back on that.
Prove that 110 years ago they were lying or illiterate? So you think that 110 years ago less than 5.5% of the population in East Belfast was illiterate. I would say it was more than 5.5%.
It is not unreasonable to assume that 110 years ago, at least 5.5% of the population were illiterate, given that 110 years later, in Ireland, in the 21st century, despite all the EU money and the technology and the celtic tiger , " The OECD Adult Skills Survey shows that 17.9% or about 1 in 6, Irish adults are at or below level 1 on a five level literacy scale. At this level a person may be unable to understand basic written information."
Do not take my word for it, I am quoting from the National Adult Literacy Agency, here in Ireland. Not 2 individuals in Belfast funded by the lottery, and who aim is to promote the Irish language! Surprise surprise, after a few years research they found 87 individuals in east Belfast 110 years ago who spoke Irish. Well, they had a cupla focail anyway. Probably. :) I nearly spilt my coffee laughing.
https://www.nala.ie/good-news-as-oecd-results-shows-irelands-15-year-olds-are-among-the-best-in-reading-literacy/
Maybe you think literacy was much much higher in Belfast 110 years ago (95% of the population?) compared to literacy in Ireland now ( 80% of the population?). Does not sound if the Irish education system is much good in the past 110 years so then, despite all the EU money and technology? Why, according to your conclusions and the statistics, is illiteracy much more in Ireland now than in east Belfast 110 years ago? Oh, I forgot, its the Brits fault.
The 'Ireland' reffered to here will change in a UI to include 6 more counties.
Generally speaking, anybody applying to an NUI institution who was born and had all their education in the Republic of Ireland must present Irish (achieving at least Grade D at Ordinary Level) for Matriculation purposes. Students not born in the Republic of Ireland or educated for an extended period outside Ireland may apply to NUI for an exemption from the Irish language requirement. Students with specific learning difficulties affecting language acquisition (dyslexia) may also apply for exemption from Irish. To apply for an exemption, it is necessary to send in a completed Exemption Application Form and other relevant material.
That requirement will then have to be ammended.
This isn't rocket science.
For most of the 20th Century, up until about 30 years ago, you needed Irish to get a government job. Even up to the present day to get in to certain universities like UCD, UCG or UCC, a minimum grade of O6/H7 in Leaving Certificate Irish is generally required for all applicants born in Ireland.
If nationalists like Sinn Fein want to increase the use of Irish, as they seemingly do ( it would have been unthinkable a few decades ago that the first language on the sign outside a Protestant village in the North would be the Irish language, against the wishes of the residents there ), then if I were a resident of that village I would not trust the government of an all Ireland state.
You have been asked to back up this claim:
I think the people who done that study had a vested interest in finding certain results, in order to justify their funding and study. I would take it with a very large piece of salt.
basically, you 'back up' is a series of questions you expect me to back up for you.
Like the one party issue, if you can contradict what is contained here with evidence and back up, please do:
Irish Speakers in East Belfast
Higher Certificate in Irish from Coláiste Comgaill
Due to the efforts of the language revival movement, the Irish language was included in mainstream education. It was introduced to the curriculum of the Catholic teacher training colleges for women in 1902. Around the same time, two colleges in Belfast were funded to provide Irish language training to working teachers. In 1906 after a long struggle with the Commissioners for Irish Intermediate Education, and thanks to the efforts of Lord Aberdeen, Irish was put on the Intermediate curriculum. In 1908, due to the work of McArthur and others, Irish was re-introduced to Queen’s College, for the first time since 1861. The number of schools teaching and pupils learning Irish throughout Ulster also grew steadily over the years: In 1899, the total number of pupils achieving a pass in Irish was 1317, compared to 371 in 1887. The following year, the system of assessment changed, but the numbers continued to grow from 2256 in 1901 to 31741 in 1906.The Census
In 1901 and again in 1911, the Census of Population included a question on ability to speak Irish. Data from 1911 show large numbers of people living in east Belfast reported they could speak Irish. As the population of East Belfast included people who had moved from all parts of the country, some of these may have been native Irish speakers or the families of such. But many had probably learnt or were learning Irish in school, in classes organised by Conradh na Gaeilge or possibly like McArthur had been drawn to the language through their Scottish ancestry.
For instance, take the bolded bit, if Lord Aberdeen didn't do what the website claims...prove it.
If 5,799 people reported they could speak Irish, PROVE they were lying or were illiterate.
This is how backing up your claims works.
What Government jobs do you need Irish to get, as a matter of interest ? Speaking as someone who has had a Government job for over thirty years now, who didn’t have to pass any Irish exam to get in. And if you are going to come back and say it was the case once upon a time, well why would you imagine that that position would be reverted to, for anyone ?
I asked you " What about people who could not read or who filled out the survey incorrectly - are the researchers suggesting the Protestants from east Belfast who by mistake ticked the wrong box and then corrected it were closet Irish speakers from Connemara? "
I also asked you a question after researching literacy in Ireland currently. "If you google literacy in Ireland - not Belfast over 100 years ago , but "Ireland" in the 21st century - you will see " The OECD Adult Skills Survey shows that 17.9% or about 1 in 6, Irish adults are at or below level 1 on a five level literacy scale. At this level a person may be unable to understand basic written information." So what was literacy like in the era of the First World War?
I am long enough in the tooth, thank you, to keep an open mind on the impartiality of the two individuals from Turas, an organisation that promotes the Irish language , who claim they found 74 individuals from East Belfast about 110 years ago and who spoke Irish and who served in the British army. Maybe they did. Perhaps some were from Irish speaking areas of the country and who went to the Protestant areas of Belfast and found they were treated with respect and who served in the British army. Who cares. Wonder how much lottery grant money those 2 got?
Fascinating website for those interested.
Run by the redoudtable and brave Linda Irvine (Lundied and villified by her own) it gives the lie to any claims that there is a blanket objection to the Irish language in Protestantism.
There simply isn't any proof of that and anyone linking the two is trying to sectarianise the issue to their own ends.
“Turas” meaning journey or pilgrimage in both Irish Gaelige and Scots Gàidhlig is an Irish language project which aims to connect people from Protestant communities to their own history with the Irish language. Turas is based on the belief that the language belongs to everyone and that it can be a mechanism of reconciliation.
If John Hume's supporters were more numerous , and had voted, as they were entitled to do, in the Border Poll Referendum of 1973 in N. Ireland (everyone then had a vote, it did not matter on gender, class, religion or politics). they would have won the poll. However he had not as many supporters as there were unionists. The majority of the population in N. Ireland were unionists. They should have run the place more fairly but NI catholics were not the Most Oppressed People Ever. (MOPEs). Ask another founder of the SDLP, Gerry Fitt, many of his catholic friends never experienced any discrimination.
It still was not like North Korea, which you compared N. Ireland to, and it still was not an excuse to kill unionist politicians and shoppers etc.
Is there any point asking you to back this up?
I think the people who done that study had a vested interest in finding certain results, in order to justify their funding and study. I would take it with a very large piece of salt. It says "Householders who completed census forms in the early 20th century were asked to state their proficiency in English and Irish. Ms Duggan said intriguingly many responses from Protestants who said they could speak Irish had subsequently been crossed out by officials."
If you google literacy in Ireland - not Belfast over 100 years ago , but "Ireland" in the 21st century - you will see " The OECD Adult Skills Survey shows that 17.9% or about 1 in 6, Irish adults are at or below level 1 on a five level literacy scale. At this level a person may be unable to understand basic written information." So what was literacy like in the era of the First World War? Worse I would suspect, same as it would have been worse worldwide.
What about people who could not read or who filled out the survey incorrectly - are the researchers suggesting the Protestants from east Belfast who by mistake ticked the wrong box and then corrected it were closet Irish speakers from Connemara?
