Following on from here
New Munster chat thread folks. warning deserved there. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=109477571#post109477571
Assuming Frisch is healthy and will be restored, and Scannell is good to go, there really only are a handful of calls to be made.
It definitely feels like a game where you want Murray's composure from the off, with Casey to add tempo later on.
Will Snyman be backed to start?
The big one - will they back Crowley to start from 10?
nice one..
A moot point, Thomond if Bulls win, Toulouse if Toulouse win.
If The Bulls manage to beat Toulouse, would we not have the Bulls in SA the week later? surely back and forth the Ireland wouldn't be worth it..
Or would the Bulls be played in Thomond..
Probably a mute point, as Toulouse will win...
Squad is just for one game
Good lineup there although we have a tough two games to play in SA. We have a way stronger set of backs with the return of Casey, Murray and Frisch. Healy - was he not available for the Glasgow game? Or did I miss that in one of the posts?
POM returning will insert a bit of bite boot and bo//ock to the proceedings.
I think we are really missing Beirne in these games but he was flogged in the early part of the campaign.
Delighted to see Scannell and Frisch back. Scannell is limited, but the scrum is so much better when he plays. And Frisch is just brilliant 😉
I wonder if travelling party limits played a part in Edogbo and Aherne staying behind.
If the player if 50/50 leave them at home with their medical team rather than bringing them.
Thought one of Edogbo or Ahern might be back in the squad for this, but seems they're still a few weeks away.
Is Jack O'Sullivan injured again?
28 man squad for trip to SA
Forwards: Dave Kilcoyne, Josh Wycherley; Diarmuid Barron, Scott Buckley, Niall Scannell; Stephen Archer, Keynan Knox, Roman Salanoa; Jean Kleyn, RG Snyman, Fineen Wycherley; Gavin Coombes, John Hodnett, Alex Kendellen, Jack O’Donoghue, Peter O’Mahony.
Backs: Craig Casey, Conor Murray, Paddy Patterson; Joey Carbery, Jack Crowley, Ben Healy; Malakai Fekitoa, Antoine Frisch; Shane Daly, Mike Haley, Calvin Nash, Simon Zebo.
I wouldn't be surprised if that's a pre-planned move. Carbery has been taken off or moved to full back to accommodate Crowley/Healy going to 10 in pretty much every game since Christmas in the third quarter of the game (unless there's been an injury).
Was at this, seemed like a bit of a collective malaise where everyone was making silly errors as opposed to any one person being at fault. We didn't get up to the pace of the game in the first half (defensively, especially our line speed) at all and they really punished us. Hard to come back from that.
Joey actually did okay in the first half offensively but then that crazy pass finished it... just when if we'd gotten another score it would have rightly put the **** up them... I'd agree with the above, time to just give Crowley the 10 jersey and let him develop.
Kleyn, Nash, Coombes, Hodnett, Casey, Salanoa did reasonably well, Nash was probably the pick of the bunch.
Just on Haley, that was a bit of a bizarre take - he's just back from a number of weeks out, that performance was a blip compared to his usual standard - he's been superb for us. I'd have been more than happy to see him get called up internationally based on his form.
Probably the worst first half performance I've ever seen by us in Thomond. Even when they came out in the second I thought we'd see more fire and brimstone and urgency. Worrying (and a bit deflating) as we had been on a decent trajectory of form since the South Africa game.
Hopefully returning players like POM, Beirne, RG, Edogbo, Murray, Frisch can give us some impetus. Any timeline on the likes of Earls/Loughman/Scannel?
Watching again on replay
kilcoyne not looking sharp from the start, not sure whether he’s nursing an injury . Definitely carrying a few extra kilos.
barron - lucky to get away with a few fake throws. Caught on at least one. I’d say with experience he will come on .He was one of the players who were brought in early because of Covid.
Salanoa - got to have a bright future, mobile around the park, good carrries
Kleyn - solid performance from him in a team under pressure
Hodnett looked like a man that had been beasted in training during the week. Sluggish compared to his previous form
JOD - some childish breaks with ball in hand, might have looked good when you were in sixth year but not in professional rugby a few mistakes including giving up a penalty for a neck roll. Not enough chat with the ref I thought even if just to put a few ideas into his head
coombes - quiet by his standards, maybe tired from all the games he has played also opposition teams are ready for him
patterson - some wacky decisions from him that could have looked spectacular if they came off he will improve with experience. Playing 3rd to two internationals can’t be easy.
casey - has massive potential to be that midfield general made stuff happen when he came on
Carbery - poor decisions by him at times, no sense of him turning into a midfield general
Crowley - not physical enough as a 12, totally different position to 10, getting game time but that’s all.
Nash had a good game I thought- one of his better
Daly bright every time he got the ball.
Haley - not at his previous best but I don’t agree that he’s not potential international in future. Good in the air, good step, almost always makes it back to supporting forwards when he does get tackled. He got stepped by Glasgows 13 for the second try
no Munster player was in great form I thought, plus Glasgow had a good share of their internationals back
ref missed a couple of Glasgow neck rolls and crooked throws, Crowley tackled with no ball in the run in to the third Glasgow try. Patterson tackled without the ball close to halftime. Let Glasgow away with a lot of cynical fouls close to the try line.
but realistically letting the opposition score 28 unanswered points- never going to end well. I had typed 21 first and had to go back and correct.
Once the ref got in his head that Killer was at fault at the scrums we got nothing from him whether it be a Glasgow or Munster collapse.
That being said killers binds were exceptionally low
Our lineout seems to be very poor at the moment, we don't seem to be able to set up an attacking maul without giving away a penalty. Lineout used to be a core strength of Munster teams. I understand the scrum but surely the technical issues in lineout are fixable
It was farther in than that imo. Not at the feet of the second row. Maybe i need to watch again.
Don't think there's anything illegal about that. The laws specifically say one of the ways a scrum can end is when the number eight picks up the ball from the feet of a second-row player.
I agree with a lot of this but i think the irfu are just not letting munster sign front rows. Jackman said on a podcast earlier this year that they weren’t allowed at hooker explicitly. I’ve heard random stuff about the other spots as well. Also, just logically munster haven’t really had trouble signing top players from abroad… why would front row pose such a problem?
It kind of makes sense at both prop positions. Loughman and Kilcoyne are high in the LH chart. Salanoa and Knox are both guys the IRFU want developed. I don’t really get hooker though.
I think that pass and that decision by your veteran 10 in a massive moment is big though. Like, he got subbed right after.
There was at least one that to me was text book boring in on glasgow that got called on munster. However, yea you are probably right.
I think my confidence in the ref got hurt by him allowing the glasgow 8 to twice reach WAY into the scrum and pick up the ball. Maybe that’s just not a law that’s enforced any more?
Excellent post without parsing every single point. Munster definitely have a streak of sticking with players too long instead of cracking on and letting them go. Post was spot on in terms of results for resources available when compared with other teams- Connacht being a good example.
That can happen, there's a lot of moving parts, and often depends on what side of the scrum the ref is standing on. I daresay it won't be the last time this season we'll see the ref give 2 scrum re-sets for potential penalties before the end of the season.
But overall, the ref was completely fine in this game.
This is the thing re Carbery, a few weeks ago he was on everyone's list as being on the plane to the RWC, he's exactly the guy you would have greater expectations.
Once again, I'm not laying the blame on him for our performance on Saturday evening.
Overall I'd say he is a bottom half of the URC starting 15 standard. Yet many fans talk about Ireland call ups with him? He rightfully can't get close to an Ireland training squad in what is one of our shallowest positions.
I think that's very harsh on Haley tbh. He's been tasked with more counter-attacking this season and has generally been brilliant at it. He's generally excellent under a high ball as well, and has a big boot. He looked a bit off the pace here, but he's only just returning from injury also.
With regards Ireland selection, at least part of that is down to 1) Keenan's durability and 2) the fact Haley only covers one position. We've only ever brought 1 dedicated FB in our RWC squads (the starter) so more versatile guys are going to be more valuable. I think there are a number of guys who'd still be ahead of him, but it further limits his possibilities.
But even if he never gets near Ireland camp again, I think he's significantly better than a bottom-half-URC level 15.
I'd agree with that in the main, and would add Casey to the positives as well. Carbery showed some decent passing at times, thought he could've kicked for territory a bit more frequently to relief some of the pressure in the 1st half and his defence is an obvious weak point at this point. (He played better than he did at the start of the season, for example).
But I think for a player with his experience and international exposure, we need more from him... Patterson was weaker for sure, but you can be more forgiving of a young player.
Ultimately Carbery is in his prime and at this stage in his career doesn't look like he'll improve to become a really top level outhalf. I'd have no qualms to see Crowley getting more opportunities at 10.
I think you're reading too much into the tallies they put up in games during a 6N window against a Benetton side shorn of their Italian internationals, and against Welsh provinces that were literally going through an existential crisis at the time.
He was unusually poor in defence at the weekend, but to me is further ahead of those other players as a defender than they are of him as an attacker.
Munster's attack at the weekend already had two playmakers in Carbery & Crowley, and actually moved the ball pretty well at times. It's impossible to build a foundation though when your set piece is imploding.
I don't think he's a bad playmaker. He's not an elite passer but don't think Daly or Campbell are appreciably better than him there. He's a good broken field runner, a big physical guy who breaks first up tackles a lot and has a good ability to get offloads away. .
You said yourself in the post they averaged 30 ppg with him during a decent sample size this season, that ought to be enough to win most games. Even this past weekend they scored four tries and 26 points. Their attack wasn't the losing of the game for them, and they've got bigger problems to solve than Mike Haley.
I think the three games that he missed recently is the best Munster have looked in attack, we averaged 50 points scored per game. If you compare that to the games after the SA match and exclude the more difficult fixtures (Ulster, Leinster and the ERC games) Munster were averaging 30 points pg with Haley starting. He is definitely a better defender than Daly or Campbell or Crowley but what you lose in defence you more than make up for in the overall cohesiveness they bring to the attack. Munsters attack needs someone who can pass at 15, Haley might be better for a tighter game but it would be a travesty to see him started next week against the Sharks.
I really don't agree with that. I'm not Haley's biggest fan in the world, and he definitely had a poor game on Saturday, but when he's healthy and at his best I think he's a really good full back.
He was one of Munster's better players earlier this season, before injuries disrupted his momentum. He's a far better player than Zebo at this point in Zebo's career.
Haley epitomises what you describe in your final list. He knows how to defend from 15, he is kind of quick and he has a nice step to beat the first or second tackle when he runs back from deep in space. He has a major drawback in that he offers essentially no playmaking. Overall I'd say he is a bottom half of the URC starting 15 standard. Yet many fans talk about Ireland call ups with him? He rightfully can't get close to an Ireland training squad in what is one of our shallowest positions. I watched the Ulster game after the Munster one and thought the Bulls fullback is kind of typical of what you want from a good club 15, he constantly looked for offloads in the tackle, fit in seamlessly to backline passing moves, was a threat to run the length of the pitch when he broke a tackle and every time a back broke the line he was on their should looking to take the pass and finish the move, he had a couple of errors too but you'd expect that from a good URC level 15 who tries things. Haley is way off that standard, never mind international, I don't think he completed a single pass on Saturday. Zebo, for all the endless stick he takes, immediately improved the backline when he came on. I don't think Daly is any great shake either but he fits the current Munster attack at 15 much better than Haley, for all the talk of Crowley being out of position I thought it was Daly who looked out of place on the wing, to me his best position is clearly fullback.
They've done better than I expected (the weekend excepted) and on paper at least to be still in contention for a home QF is impressive stuff. There is a pretty sizeable risk of missing out on Europe still though, which I was fairly shocked by when looking at it as I figured they were home and hosed.
The first tiebreaker being number of wins is not doing them any favours.
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