The DUP refusing to let Sinn Fein have First Minister means a December Assembly Election. Will the numbers change in a fresh Election?
What parties seats are vulnerable or who might make gains in any constituencies ??
Did you not read the links? As the 3 links I provided to you showed, it was the Catholic leader St Ignatius Loyola, the founder of the Jesuits, on behalf of the Catholic church, who used the slogan "give me a boy until they are 7 and I will show you the man".
Back to the point about the Irish language signs at the predominately Protestant village: its the thin edge of the wedge if Sinn Fein get their way. As someone else said, if SF get their way fully the Protestants will have to face the choice of moving to Britain or being assimilated into the Irish Republic. If they think Irish signs are bad wait until they have to do compulsory Irish in school, go to certain universities, get a government job etc - as happened here..
You said:
As the catholic church said, "give me a boy until they are 7 and I will show you the man".
That's a proper quote from YOUR post.
Ignatius, a member of the RC church quoted Aristotle, a pagan Greek.
And as I said to Furze, he is using a 1950's/60's version of Ireland to peddle a myth and outdated cliche. Ireland does not bear any resemblance to the Ireland of the Christian Brothers.
We ignore Catholic teachings now that don't suit how we live. We have modernised in other words.
Francie, I said it was St Ignatius Loyola, the founder of the Jesuits who said Give me a child till he is seven years old, and I will show you the man."
I also said Aristotle probably said it, but lets face it, the influence of someone like Aristotles who was born nearly 400 BC as far as I remember was / is probably much less than the Jesuits / Christian Brothers, who as Furze99 wrote yesterday " It's the reality of it Francie, when you have a large majority on one side who've been brainwashed by a century of 'Christian Brother' history." He clarified "Yes brainwashed with simplistic narrative of history - i.e. Brits/ Prods = Bad and Irish/ Catholic = Good."
Downcow and Francis have suspect ability at Maths.
Mid Ulster Council has 35 councillors in total. SF has 15 of those seats at the table.
Do the math, as they say.
Back to the topic, do you not think Downcow was correct in stating SF should not have raised tensions in the predominately Protestant village by erecting Irish language signage?
Firstly, SF did not raise tensions by erecting Irish language signage. The council erected the signs.
On that basis, can you explain why tensions were raised over some signage? As the introduction of Irish had been agreed by their politicians, what grounds might there have been for tensions because making it out to be some kind of sectarian intimidation doesn't stack up when you think that even the DUP voted in favour of introducing Irish?
No Francis, it was Aristotle that said it, NOT the Catholic Church.
'Also attributed'....😀
The Catholic Church also denounced the 1916 Rising, but the people of Ireland ignored them as we know. They have also ignored RC teaching more spectacularly in recent decades but never let the truth get in the way of propounding myths and falsehoods about your own people.
There was a revolution against British oppression and the lack of equality/self determination for ordinary Irish people here, as there was right around the world in their other colonies and dominion, this we know. Some people regret that but the vast majority accept it and cherish their sovereignty.
However, despite the cliches presented by you (and wrongful quotes), the evidence today suggests that British people are more than welcome here and vice versa.
It was also attributed to Aristotle if you go back far enough, you are correct there. However, in more relatively recent times, it was the founder of the Jesuit Brotherhood who was famous (or infamous) for that saying, which he copied " Give me a child till he is seven years old,’ said St Ignatius Loyola, ‘ and I will show you the man." Google it if you do not believe me.
The Christian Brothers had some "great" sayings that stick out, which they sometimes copied from others but repeated often. I remember another one was " Burn everything British but their coal". As Furse99 correctly pointed out the anti-English / anti protestant brainwashing .."Take something like the Famine. I've seen many social media articles that touch on this and the subsequent comments always descend into allegations of genocide and hatred." he wrote. No wonder only some months ago the ladies Irish national football team, God help them, ended up chanting Up the Ra in Britain, which suffered many bombings at the hands of the RA, not unlike how the US mainland suffered 9/11.
That quote is attributed to a pagan Greek philosopher called Aristotle.
The contrast between the way the two communities dealt with Language Rights could not be greater.
Nobody in Nationalism objected to Ulster Scots legislation passing - indeed nationalist/republican led councils have introduced Ulster Scots legislation and have passed it. Here is the front page of a detailed Derry and Stabane's policy doc. Full doc on their website.
Contrast that with the constant blocking of Agreements - international and local by Unionism, from the DUP leadership right down to local councillors condoning the vandalising of signage.
Correct. And as a catholic educated in the 26 counties I have to agree with you. Most of those who were brainwashed do not even realise they were brainwashed. As the catholic church said, "give me a boy until they are 7 and I will show you the man". Except the brainwashing continued until leaving secondary school. Hard to blame the victims in a way. A bit like the many victims of abuse, many did not believe they were abused at the time or come forward until decades later.
You are quite right there downcow. Sinn Fein erecting a sign predominately in Irish ( it is not just the name of the village in Irish, it begins with Failte go...which means welcome to ) in a predominately Protestant village is just the thin edge of the wedge. Continue to resist a UI downcow, because otherwise you and your community will be out. Never underestimate the Republican propaganda machine, and how effective it is in brainwashing people.
Before you know it your kids and grandkids would need Irish to pass their secondary school education and to get in to Irish universities like UCD, UCG, UCC, to to get a government job. It happened here ( south of the border) Your kids and grandkids would find history part of the school curriculum, and be taught all about the famine and to hate the British, and there would be posters of the heroes ( I witnessed the "heroes" of 1916 in my time ie the republican leaders of the 1916 rising - in another generation it would be of Bobby Sands and Co if Sinn Fein get their way. )
So effective is the SF type brainwashing that the ladies Irish National Soccer Team ( not even gaa plays, who are typically more republican ) chanted Uh Ah Up the RA in a football ground in the UK. Imagine the furore if a Saudi Arabian soccer team for example chanted pro Taliban / pro 9/11 bomber slogans in the USA? So effective is the brainwashing some Irish do not even see the harm / insult in the Irish national team chanting Uh Ah Up the RA, and do not see the Le Mons bombing, Bloody Friday bombing and the thousands of other Republican bombings etc for example as the exact same as the 9/11 except perhaps in scale.
I agree with you that it is sad a SF council is so determined to raise tensions.etc
Quote: Tell me this Furze. Is Tobar Mór and Tobermore pronounced the same? If so, then I would argue that it is not anglicised. It would be a bit like writing Mill Pond in Irish phonetics so as an Irish person who spoke Irish and not English could read it so as when they speak it sounds as mill pond - and then saying that that is if gaelicised. Do you see my point? And is it reasonable?
Well, Ulster Scots is just English with a Glasgee accent, but it means a lot to all those Ulster folk who speak it.
I do not know how many Ulster folk who actually speak it, or if any actually do, but there you go - political footballs are like that - irrelevant becomes vital when a football needs a good kick.
Unionism now sees the Irish language through siege mentality glasses. It's another war that has to be won.
Unionism didn't always have this hate and antipathy towards the native tongue, Carson spoke it and Paisley, Trimble (even) had no problems calling themselves Irish.
As manifested right now, throughout Unionism, 'insecurity' in their own identity is at the root of this.
Of course strategically it cannot be won, dual language signage is going up across the province. They'd have been better off embracing it and the pace would probably have been slower.
Is ni british francie ?
I wouldnt condemn anyone, but I would question why people would be so offended when their ancestors spoke Irish themselves, prior to the Plantation of Ulster.
Northern Ireland is still Irish.
Be it currently part of the UK or not.
Tobermore has no meaning. There are no word 'Tober' in the English language.(there is a slang word) It references nothing in the original placename.
You don't need the English language to be interested in placenames in Irish. This therefore makes no sense:
I remember being really interested many years ago the read the translations of all the Mourne mountains in English. I helped me realise the richness of the Irish names. Had someone just instead showed me how the perfect Irish spelling looked it would have been of zero interest to me. I think those promoting Irish are missing a trick.
I.E. I don't need anything more than εἰς τὴν Πόλιν (pronounced 'is tim ˈbolin') to be interested in where the name for Istanbul came from. It means 'to the city'.
In Ireland the names that have no interest(because they have no meaning) are those spelt Tobermore, because it means nothing in English. There are worse examples where the placenames were completely gotten rid of.
Tell me this Furze. Is Tobar Mór and Tobermore pronounced the same? If so, then I would argue that it is not anglicised. It would be a bit like writing Mill Pond in Irish phonetics so as an Irish person who spoke Irish and not English could read it so as when they speak it sounds as mill pond - and then saying that that is if gaelicised. Do you see my point? And is it reasonable?
I get your point ability tobormore, but do you not think it would be much more effective at awakening peoples interest and knowledge of Irish to see ‘the big well’ written as well.
Which proves what exactly?
Are you claiming that we are unusual in that we have many opinions across our society about our history? It is a divided history, two people in the same classroom might have different views on it.
There is no brainwashing going on Furze, it's a cliche you trotted out.
We go abroad, we are respectful of other cultures as we are here at home, with some minor exceptions.
I'm surprised at you Francie. Sure at an official level, the glad hand will be proffered and British visitors treated with respect. But there's a deep ingrained resentment as well and it ill behoves you to try and sweep that under the carpet.
Take something like the Famine. I've seen many social media articles that touch on this and the subsequent comments always descend into allegations of genocide and hatred.
oh FFS that old rubbish again.
What about when a Royal comes here? There are loads out to welcome, Irish and British go back and forth to each others islands, no probs. We work there and they work here, no problem.
But a bit of sporting rivalry = you've all been brainwashed to hate them.
It's no different to neighbouring GAA county rivalry, mostly good natured ribbing that can occaisionally get more antagonistic.
Jaysus Francie, the attitude I portray above is rampant in the south. It's just part of the culture. Frequently on display and read here and many other social media sites. Most obvious of course when the Brits are playing any tournament and we all hope they get thrashed.
Who believes that Furze?
We are fully aware of what Catholicism did in our country and it isn't 'good'. Where have you been for the last 25 to 30 years.
Stop peddling 1960 versions of Ireland?
Yes brainwashed with simplistic narrative of history - i.e. Brits/ Prods = Bad and Irish/ Catholic = Good.
Well I agree and disagree with you there. Firstly there should be consultation, secondly is this Mill Park an 'English' name i.e. was there ever an Irish form of the name that was translated into English? If there was only ever a place called Mill Park, then it should stay as that. Translating that into Irish is a form of cultural arrogance. As a aside, the council should learn to spell - it should read Páirc an Mhuillin if they insist on it.. Thirdly it would be reasonable to put Mill Park in larger letters at top of the sign and if appropriate the Irish version in smaller letting at the base. Not this way, which assumes primacy of Irish by placing it first and more cultural arrogance on display/
However Tobermore is from Tobar Mór and has clearly been anglicised into Tobermore. There is most definitely a case here for an Irish version of Tobermore on a sign, but of less prominence, not out of disrespect for Irish but because the vast majority of local residents would likely know it as Tobermore and use that in their addresses etc. The use of Tobar Mór in this instance on the sign clarifies and adds value to the name.
What?
Brainwashed?
You are saying it in Irish.
Anybody can research what it means.
But you would rather eat grass than do that and lash out at everyone but the stubbornly prejudiced.
Predictably it's 'my cultural bigotry is somebody else's fault. My insecurity is somebody else's fault etc etc etc.
Time to change the record.
It's the reality of it Francie, when you have a large majority on one side who've been brainwashed by a century of 'Christian Brother' history.
You confirm my point. It is already phonetically spelt Irish - and you think I am the problem for suggesting that it would be useful to get it written in a language 99% of ni could understand, prior to getting it repeated in a different form of spelling that it is already in and that a tiny minority speak. Mmmmm!
If you don't know what your place name means and what language it is in, that is your own ignorance. The information is freely available.
But of course...it's somebody else's fault and you are the victim.
Good lord, offended by a simple sign with the name of the place you live in and say in Irish everyday. 🙄
Do you ever actually answer a question?
But that aside do you not think it would make more sense and encourage an understanding of Irish, to put up a sign with the English translation. I have argued this to my SF council but they don’t want to know, just rather score points.
so the only people who know what Tobermore means are Irish speakers. So the SF councils answer is let’s put up another Irish spelling of it. Can you not see that if they put up a sign with ‘the big well’ or whatever it is, on it, then non Irish speakers would be intrigued and educated and start to see the random word as ‘oh that’s Irish, that’s part of our heritage’.
if you put me in charge of developing a respect for Irish, I would undo the damage republicans have done. It would be simple. But then they wouldn’t be able to wing people up.
