I have become more and more convinced over the years that we need Hate Crime laws in this country - It's very disturbing to read about recent homophobic violent incidences, to see that reported transphobic hate crime has doubled in Northern Ireland but often go unreported here in Ireland. Even though we have no official Irish laws on hate crime - there was an 80% rise of reports on the unofficial hate crime reports in 2021.
Possible hate motive investigated as mutilated body of man found in Sligo (irishtimes.com)
Evan Somers: Outrage after gay man beaten to a pulp on Dublin street for being 'different' - Irish Mirror Online
Anti-lockdown protester jailed for 'cowardly' assault of Izzy Kamikaze (irishexaminer.com)
• Transphobic hate crime Northern Ireland 2021 | Statista
Just 10% of transphobic hate crime reported to Garda, study finds (irishtimes.com)
Hate crimes up by more than 80% in first half of 2021 – Garda figures (irishtimes.com)
Thats up to the courts to decide on a case by case basis.
Nobody is claiming that it is automatic, you are right. Either am I. But cases are not always necessarily so clear cut.
If someone is mugging someone else clearly for their wallet/phone and says 'effing ****' half way through when they realise they are gay, is that suddenly now a hate crime or is it still just a 'normal' mugging?
Is actually calling someone an 'effing ****' in a moment of road rage for example itself going to be considered a hate crime?
The person having the crime committed against them could interpret it as a hate crime whereas that was not the actual intention of the criminal.
Yes, there are cases where intent is very clear and simple to work out (ie; a gay couple getting beaten up for holding hands), however I can only imagine there are plenty of cases like the above where it is not.
I suppose what I am trying to basically say that I am loathe to agree with adding another law that is potentially open to a lot of speculation re its interpretation.
And this is all before you factor in that religion is seen as a protected characteristic under this proposed new bill.
The courts would look at proof and take things into consideration of what actually happened during the incident. For example if a person is being verbally abused "effing ****" while being punched the court would take that into account. Noone is claiming a person being beaten up who happens to be gay is automatically a hate crime.
I think you are missing the point somewhat.
Yes, violent crimes are up across the country and I don't think anyone is saying any groups are being targeted in particular over others. I don't disagree with you at all there.
The point is that the reason some people are being targeted is potentially because of who they are/what they look like. This as a statistic in itself seems to be on the up.
Now the contentious issue for me is 'well, how do you prove people are being attacked for what they look like, as opposed to a gay person for example just being attacked in general as crime is on the up?'
I think a good test of this is to ask the people who are in minority groups how they feel day to day walking about towns. I have a a lot of immigrant friends (plus side to having an immigrant partner!) and there definitely is a general feel of unease for a lot of them.
Sad to say, verbal racial abuse is actually at the lower end of the scale too.
It wont solve everything for targets of hate crime. There are a lot of other things needed like education, victim support, the ICCL call for a national action plan on hate would be hugely beneficial too.
Hopefully the legislation is passed soon. Then more can actually be charged with hate crime and punished adequately.
At the minute the scrotes run the streets
This is a discussion on hate crime. Your "whatabout bla" is very much irrelevant whataboutery.
The national crime statistics are there for all to see . There are many many victims but not all groups get rolling coverage which can make it seem like that group are being particularly targeted but when you look at the national statistics you see the full picture. That violent crime is up across the country. We are all victims
You seem to fundamentally misunderstand the definition of whataboutery.
Crime statistics are facts from the gardai. Not whataboutary.
Absolutely
My black friend is now afraid to walk around Dublin unaccompanied. As the article above highlighted gay people are now afraid of holding hands in Dublin. Its all very well looking at crime intellectually and dispassionately as if there is no real harm to people but thats not the reality. The reality is many many people are now fearful in their daily lives because of the chilling factors of increased hate.
Its not just the crime itself to be considered. Its the extra impact hate crime has on people who are targeted. Its the climate and culture of fear it creates.
As much as I agree, I suppose the issue really here is that I don't think any waiters or jewelry shop owners wake up in the morning, afraid to express themselves for fear of being attacked.
Being afraid to do the things most other people do and don't think twice about for fear of being attacked is a specific experience unique to anyone who looks different in this country.
Ok but this discussion is specifically about hate crime so whataboutery on other crimes is irrelevant.
"Crimes against the person increased by 14 per cent on 2021’s figures and the number of cases of assault causing harm jumped by 20 per cent in the same time frame.
The difference between 2019 and 2022 was a six per cent increase for crimes against the person and 16 per cent for assault causing harm"
Crime and violent assault against everyone is up.
Some people are targeted because they are redheads, some because they are black, some because they work in a jewelry shop, some because they are bankers, or waiters, or barmen, or gay, or transgender, or teachers, or somebody's sister.
Some people are attacked at random just because they were close to the assailant.
To me, none is more acceptable than any of the others.
Fair enough. You have no strong opinion which is worse. Others feel strongly that being targeted because of something specific is worse.
Maybe watch primetime tonight
A victim is either targeted or else is random.
I couldn't say which is worse or deserves stronger punishment.
(ie - not referring to someone using their preferred pronoun being considered a hate crime?)
It isn't a crime at all and the government has not stated any intention to make it so.
Thats up to the dpp and courts to decide if there was bias involved or not.
If some gay person randomly gets beaten up and there is no clear homophobic intent then it wouldnt be prosecuted as a hate crime. If someone gets beaten up and the perpetrator is clearly spouting homophobic abuse at the exact same time then it night be.
I havent seen any serious claim that not using a persons preferred pronouns would be considered a hate crime.
I suppose my own issue with it is the subjectivity part. It's just too vague.
In theory it's a great idea, making targeting someone for who they are a certain type of crime is a good thing.
However, how do we set the parameters for it? Does it apply to everyone or just protected groups? How do we prove it was a 'hate' motivated attack and not just an opportunistic attack on a person who happens to be from a minority group?
I do love the idea of hearing of loads of scrotes suddenly in court for 'hate crime' charges, but at the same time, is it something that might lose the run of itself with the current climate surrounding gender identity for example? (ie - not referring to someone using their preferred pronoun being considered a hate crime?)
Lots to think about really.
A crime isnt just a crime if the person is targeted for the crime because of who they are.
Ok so its not meaningless then because we can see there are hate crime reports increasing. Thats what it means.
I think they are saying people are more comfortable with reporting hate crimes now as opposed to before the hate part of it, would not have been mentioned
I'm conflicted about it myself. I think the term 'hate crime' is too subjective and emotional to be enshrined into law.
On the other hand though, something drastic needs to be done to stop people being targeted for being different.
Not being able to be affectionate to your partner in public out of fear of being attacked or simply being afraid to be who you are as a person walking down the street is definitely something which should be acknowledged.
It's definitely a fear that I wouldn't have myself in my day to day life as I'm not part of a minority group.
I'm personally not in favour of categorising anything as a hate crime.
A crime is a crime irrespective of the motive. The gender or race of the victim is irrelevant.
Any physical attack causing harm should be dealt with severely by the courts.
No ad hominem. Its genuinely embarassing that you would claim people report crimes just because... and not because they actually happened.
It is unreliable data. No need for the ad hominem lado.
Right ok. People only report hate crimes because of talk, perceptions and other people report them. Not because they happen. I'm embarassed for you with that argument to be honest.
Those stats are meaningless. Hate crime reports are only increasing as more people are talking about them, perceiving and reporting them. Aside from things like homicide, very few crime stats are reliable. The idea that sex education will change anything is far fetched.
Rise in reported hate crimes
