Let's also not forget that Joanne Hayes was a victim as well-victimised in the community, by the Gardai and disgracefully treated at the tribunal.
Yeah.
RTE radio this morning replayed excerpts from the tribunal coverage. Absolutely disgusting how Joanne Hayes was treated.
There hopefully will be a lot of red faces ,from guards,judiciary, and some high profile media personalities and journalists who behaved despicably at the time.
Kids or not nothing justifies stabbing an innocent 5 day old baby 28 times.
I think holding judgement until the full facts are known would be the best approach.
This case is a complete tragedy. I hope the facts finally come out.
Some people get to waltz through life and others have their lives destroyed.
Genuine Question...
How much of the remains of Baby John would be there after all these years, that they were able to take DNA samples?
How come that bastard got away with his brutality in this case is beyond me,I have seen him around Listowel a few times and a most arrogant prick that ever stood in two shoes will you not find.He did his best to lock up a innocent girl and persecuted a salt of the earth Hayes family .Only for the massive support of the Abbeydorney community at the time this family all faced being locked by this vile repulsive creature
Up to a point yes. But I will absolutely judge anyone who thinks murdering a newborn baby is ok.
I won’t pass judgement on John’s mother though just yet if that’s what you’re getting at. I will assume she was a victim too. Unless it comes out that she did it.
I’d imagine the remains are skeletal by now. But considering scientists have been able in the past to extract DNA from insects billions of years old trapped in amber it doesn’t seem too much of a stretch to say they can get from someone who only passed away a few decades ago.
At the announcement of the cold case review, gardaí revealed that a full DNA profile for Baby John had been generated from samples preserved during the initial post-mortem examination.
From this article on RTE: https://www.rte.ie/news/2023/0324/1366032-kerry-babies/
So samples were preserved at the initial post mortem in 1984 and used later to generate a DNA profile. They also took samples from some local women in 2018 when the cold case review began and exhumed baby John's remains briefly in 2018 for further examination.
From reading this article I'm assuming that they have been following a fairly definite line of enquiry. We'll find out soon enough.
good practice has always been that samples would be kept originally in murder cases in the trust that future science would provide some answers. I presume tissue sample might have been kept.
This case is yet another example of the investigation through narrative instinct that was ( and still is in many cases) prevalent in both police work and investigative journalism.
First you establish a narrative that explains the situation and then you look for evidence that corroborates that narrative, and exclude evidence that doesn't fit the narrative. When you have decided the "truth" of a situation and only accept facts that agree with that it is very easy for people to become utterly convinced they are right, even when the preponderance of evidence suggests otherwise. In some ways this is evolutionary as carefully and diligently weighing up the pro and cons of a situation when hunting would just leave you hungry, so you form a conclusion early and work around that.
What was the name of the senior counsel who hounded her at the tribunal?
It's the judge should have said, stop there, you're going too far.
Listening to a Kerry lady being interviewed by Claire Byrne I was a bit taken aback by the fact she doesn’t want anyone tried for the murder of baby John as “they’ve suffered enough over the years”. By this logic all murder cases that have elapsed for some time ought to be dismissed. Very provincial sounding woman, don’t be airing any dirty linen here.
You are dead right. He was and is an arrogant bollix and an example of the worst type of guard.
It is infuriating to see or hear O Carroll in the media talking scutter in his pompous manner.
She was questioned by a number of different barristers to my knowledge including:
What side was that other repulsive vile creature Judge Brian Curtain invoved with .I just see his name proping up as well
It's very evident in modern society where everything in played out on social media and everyone gets the chance to weigh in and give their opinion regardless of how much they actually know about something, and conclusions are jumped to left right and center.
The Nicola Bulley case is very recent evidence of that.
Was he representing Joanne Hayes?
Increasingly though this is in the realm of social media. It appears to occur less frequently in actual investigative work completed by professionals who I would hope are now trained to a higher standard. One example as @[Deleted User] mentioned is the Nicola Bulley case where social media had all sorts of conclusions drawn but the police themselves appeared to follow the facts even when they were getting stick for not chasing what ever the daily pet theory was
Thanks - I see a transcript of that part of the tribunal here. Worth reading again - https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-20466064.html
It was Anthony Kennedy and Martin Kennedy who gave her a very difficult time on the stand and who should be thoroughly ashamed. Appalling.
You cant extract DNA from amber or from millions of year. The earliest extracted DNA is a few hundred thousands years old but that is only in very stable cold places, not a west of Ireland rainy cemetery. A lot of Kerry has very acid soils which could eat up bones rapidly but it seems there was enough bone present to get a sample in this case.
I believe they already had blood samples from the victim, but considering the 80's shenanigans, continuity sources/contamination etc couldn't be fully trusted.
Wise to exhume I guess.
I recall that was some link (family link) between the judge and the army officer that was responsible for the Ballyseedy incident. (Pro-treaty)
There was a family link on the Hayes side to Ballyseedy. (Anti-treaty)
A Gaurd gave me his view of The Tribunal years ago. Basically, civil war scores were settled under the guise of an independent tribunal.
He also told me about the so called 'Murder Squad'. Totally out of control. To this day one of them still won't accept that JH had no connection to Baby John.
We can't verify the innocence of the Hayes family beyond all doubt.
That is some statement to make!!!
By the way how are you related to detective O Carroll ?
The toxic spirit of 1980s Ireland is still alive and well on Boards in 2023 it seems.
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