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Are IQ maps Racist?

Dyr

Here's a map of IQ by nations, you'll find similar maps with minor variations but the gist remains the same. European and Asian people score high for IQ and other people don't do so well. The Japanese appear to be super intelligent

Apparently there is a school of thought that such maps are racist. I'm not sure why. Perhaps any disciples of this school of thought can chime in with their reasoning?

You might notice on this map that us Irish appear to be the thickos of Northern Europe. Perhaps that's racist too. 😫

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Nosler

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[Deleted User]

Classically, IQ is a measure of one’s ability to extrapolate further knowledge, having being given a determined knowledge set with indirect clues.

Eg, fill in missing numbers:

3, 6, 18, 72, ?, ?

This test will require a grounding in basic numeracy, and a little familiarity of how tests go. A very clever person with just basic education in this respect will work out the differentials very quickly, and I know some very educated person who would spend a day at it and just not get it, although they function quite normally in life.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120383966#Comment_120383966

How can it be statistically accurate though ?

what number of the population of ireland has had their IQ tested ? I’d imagine a single digit percentage of the population.

of those of us who have had it tested, how many people will have allowed permission for that score to be given to an outside body, correlated or published by anyone ?

Map ain’t racist, sure is a load of hokey though.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384051#Comment_120384051

Humans are all the same species though. IQ seems to be a very reliable metric of intelligence which is not a culturally unique phenomena.

Find the idea that people who score low in IQ tests are just really intelligent in some other form of untestable intelligence to be a bit of the classic cope of redefining word so that it suits your outlook. Like claiming an artistic or physical ability qualifies as intelligence.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120385513#Comment_120385513

so what have you deduced from the map, is it essentially that Africans are thicker than the rest of us?

[Deleted User]

StevenToast

I would suggest that if you had a world map of average penis size.....it would correlate exactly the opposite to that map.....

Is that racist?

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384030#Comment_120384030

Generally considered that intelligence is highly heiritable.

Interesting idea though, what resources and opportunities do you think affect the development of intelligence over the course of generations?

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384404#Comment_120384404

Small wall of text to say nothing.

Why does it matter what factors determine IQ?

It seems to be me that you're trying to argue that IQ does not exist on the QT

Kurooi

Maps and facts are not racist. You can however acknowledge that IQ tests require literacy and basic maths we take for granted.

joseywhales

If I do a lot of arithmetic, I'll be good at the numerical test. If I read a lot of books I'll be familiar with a lot of words and associations and will do well at the verbal reasoning and I guess if I do mechanical drawing and spatial puzzles , I will be good at that one. Doesn't mean I have extra potential, which I think a lot of people associate with iq tests.

Some people have more opportunity to do well at such a test.

StevenToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384975#Comment_120384975

360, 2160

growleaves

This map is not "scientific" in the sense that people usually understand that word.

I'm familiar with some of the more famous studies in IQ research, e.g. Warne, Lynn, Vanhanen and their methodologies (more on that in a minute).

Average Irish IQ has been calculated variously as 87, 92, 94, 95.3, 95-97 and 104 according to different studies. That is some spread!

The map appears to put Ireland at around 92, which must be taken from Lynn and Vanhanen (2006). That is roughly ten points behind England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland and five points behind Argentina. Lynn later revised that upwards to 95.3.

Lynn first put Kenya at 70.5, then 75, then another set of researchers put Kenya at 80, and another set of researchers put Kenya as most intelligent country in Africa by some distance (presumably around 90+ if 91 for Sierra Leone is accurate?)

Now as for Lynn's methodology, when I first looked into it I literally lol'd. He just cited a bunch of random studies that were scored and normed different ways as if they were the same. He used tests done on malnourished orphans and kids with special needs in one instance, and tests used on adult school leavers in another instance. He seems to pick as studies included whatever suits his theories. Where is the control for variables?

It is not good research imo. That is aside from other caveats that have been mentioned.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120386009#Comment_120386009

You can go back further and find that the earliest tests of Irish IQs that were carried out on illiterate immigrants, but perhaps you missed the first sentence in this thread:

"Here's a map of IQ by nations, you'll find similar maps with minor variations but the gist remains the same. European and Asian people score high for IQ and other people don't do so well. The Japanese appear to be super intelligent"

Given your familiarity with the various studies perhaps can you point to any where the gist is substantially different from the above?

lmao10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384107#Comment_120384107

lol now thats a bang on reply. 100% accurate.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120386082#Comment_120386082

The first figure of 87 Irish IQ is from a study done in the 1980s.

According to some studies some black African countries are in the low 90s, so mix and match that with putting Ireland and the former Yugoslavia in the high 80s/low 90s and even your broadest conclusion is called into question somewhat.

Throw in the dodginess of the methodology of some of these studies and what do you have? Less than you think.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120386009#Comment_120386009

Coincidentally

"In 2017, the World Economic Forum rated Kenya’s education system as the strongest on the African continent. In 2018, the World Bank ranked Kenya the top African country for education outcomes (1st out of 43 mainland countries)."

Ham_Sandwich

IQ is definitly reacist I know loads of people who wouldnt be high IQ but woulkd have street smarts thats worth 10 IQ tests

crusd

The map could well give a could picture of the exposure of individuals to standardised testing. This is something that is pretty uncommon in Ireland, whereas US for example has wide use of standardised tests. Previous exposure to completing such tests will definitely shift the dial by a few points.

Wont bring someone from 90 to 140, but might bring someone from 100 to 105.

Beasty

Nosler threadbanned

Mic 1972

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384975#Comment_120384975

This is logical numeric intelligence. it's just one of the many forms of intelligence.

IQ tests take a snapshot of a selected set of parameteres. People shouldn't get too hung up on the IQ results

Quantum Erasure

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120385560#Comment_120385560

I don't thing education levels affect the length of your dick, they haven't in my case anyway...

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058289123/are-iq-maps-racist

Saw a good few different world maps of IQ over the years from different sources and they unfortunately all came to the same conclusion. Remember chatting to a Japanese person once and the topic of certain Japanese car brands, electronics like Sony etc. I thought I was being polite complimenting Japanese engineering. He said the Irish could never innovate or produce engineering like that. That stunned me.

He was of the opinion the reason we are the thickos of Europe in the IQ leagues is because of genetics. How come, sez I?

(A) He said over the years, more stupid people reproduced more often, and at a younger age, than intelligent people. He explained that less intelligent people in Ireland and and to a lesser extent other western countries tend to have bigger families (maybe due to culture, social welfare, the more intelligent striving in their careers or professions etc).

(B) Then he said in Irish history, the most intelligent one in some families tended to go for the priesthood, and did not reproduce, and therefore did not pass on their intelligence.

He said those were the reasons the Irish statistically do not do well in world IQ leagues. I did not compliment him on his countries cars and electronics after that.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120391675#Comment_120391675

He is only right in the sense that emigration did remove some of the more innovative individuals from the country as under British rule and the early decades of the stage Ireland was a closed shop to innovation.

The main reason Japan produced more large companies however is the fact that there are 25x more of them than us.

And in fact most of what was produced at the large Japanese corporations was invented elsewhere -ICE (Toyota, Nissan et al) - Germany, transistor (all the elctronics companies) - USA, CRT (Sony, Panasonic etc) - Germany, LCD - USA, Colour Photography (Canon, Nikon et al) - Irish

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120391675#Comment_120391675

Maybe he’s on to something as according to your ones IQ map in the OP the Irish are measurably thicker and stupider than Americans.

or maybe the maps are all bull 🤷🏻‍♂️

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120391802#Comment_120391802

Agree the Japanese did not invent everything. According to a Japanese research firm, over 40% of the world's inventions and discoveries were made in the UK, followed by France with 24% of the world's inventions and discoveries made in France and followed by the US with 20%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_inventions_and_discoveries

I suppose the British did invent the first Vaccine, railways, the first television, radar, the computer, the world wide web etc, but other countries may be better at manufacturing it. However, if you google it, there were dozens of things invented in Ireland or by people born in Ireland ( Tractor, submarine, tank, ejector seat, colour photography, guided missiles, trans-atlantic calls, induction coil etc, but they were all or nearly all invented prior to independence. I suppose we have come up with flavoured crisps since then. I do not think Taytos have caught on with the Japanese yet though.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120386577#Comment_120386577

JFYI, 10 IQ tests with a result of 85 doesn't mean an IQ of 850.

touts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120391675#Comment_120391675

I find "My grandparents were smart enough not to attack our neighbours and get flattened in World War 2" usually puts Japanese and German racists, (because thats what they are when they make snide comments about Irish people), back in their box.

growleaves

People need to use their common sense a little bit here.

IQ correlates with standard of living, culture, per capita income, level of corruption, infrastructure maintenance etc.

There is no way that Ireland is 10-15 IQ points on average lower than Northern Ireland, and 2-5 points lower than Argentina (which is a by-word for collapse, with FG politicians in the 1980s like Alan Dukes saying they didn't want Ireland to 'go the way of Argentina').

Use your noggin: where in discussions of Unification of ROI and NI is the problem of this supposed vast difference in intelligence, which must affect every aspect of life, presented as a major stumbling block?

Underestimates of Irish general intelligence are an error.

Also high intelligence is *necessary but not sufficient* for creativity.

Europeans are more creative than East Asians.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120392174#Comment_120392174

Who mentioned 10-15 points? It could be as little as 5 ( 92 versus 97 )? The countries are taken as a whole i.e. the UK (of Britain and N.Ireland) is taken as one, for the purpose of the surveys. Hence the difference between the 6 counties and the 26. Oh, and Argentina was one of the most prosperous countries in the world 100 years ago.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120385344#Comment_120385344

The whole point of IQ is that it is normalised to the mean, it is intended to allow comparisons across education levels and literacy.

So what does this map tell us. It could say that Africans have lower IQ's. It could also tell us that certain parts of the world suffer disadvantage that stunts their development such as access to education and nutrition. It is quite likely to be the latter, or the latter is the dominant reason. 40% of Americans for example have a non-white heritage and it doesn't show in these statistics.

That said, there does seem to be reluctance to acknowledge differences between races, genders and groups when it comes to this metric. For other endeavours or metrics (like athletic performance) however it is ok to acknowledge the differences. Therefore it seems unlikely to me that we are absolutely all (all groups on average that is) equal in this intelligence metric when there are differences acknowledged in other fields. The differences however when controlled for outside factors that might influence it are certainly much smaller though.