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Student car - EV or ICE - Cost comparison

akasudonim

Hi, I'm comparing costs of running a 7 to 10yo electric and ice cars - my daughter in college with a 30km daily round trip.

I'm sure there's something I'm missing from below considerations, but would welcome views/comments. Cost & reliability being the main factors.

Plus I plan on changing mine or the OH's car to electric at some point over the coming months, so a home charger will be needed and preferred before the EV grants change..

Night rate electricy is my current charge 29c/kWh (BGE rate incl VAT), diesel roughtly €1.60/l.

There's not much in the difference for low mileage consumption, not considering yet the depreciation and servicing costs.

Am I missing anything obvious?

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...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120319191#Comment_120319191

I'd still go for the (6.6OBC) Leaf. There are times when you need a quick top-up at home before heading back out and the 6.6OBC on the Leaf has the Fluence beat. Also if parts are ever needed, there are way more Leafs out there that have found their way to the scrap yard.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120319145#Comment_120319145

Can't say I agree. Nobody is going to drive a 60-80km range EV long distance. Like, ever.

So that makes a Leaf and a Fluence Z.E. equal. Then there's the much better looks of the Fluence, much more comfortable ride and more conventional looks. The only problem is the battery that is always leased, unless the owner can prove with a letter from Renault RCI that it is in fact, battery owned.

zg3409

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120319097#Comment_120319097

I think fluences in general are bad value. If they were 3/4k maybe but you can never go long distances even as a once off to collect it, and the same applies when you go to sell it. By the time you tax, insure, nct and service it, better to stretch tona leaf that can charge 7 times quicker the odd time you need it. Also leafs are better understood if you did need something fixed while there are near identical underneath.

Zoes are a smallish car but for it's size it's somewhat roomy inside.

tibia

OP your numbers look sound to me but I'm surprised at your 40mpg for the diesel Focus (which you later revised to 35mpg). I'm getting 59mpg (measured at the pump over a long term) on usage similar to what you describe so I wonder what's going on? Nobody else seemed surprised though.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120318965#Comment_120318965

This is why I started to look at other EVs 😂

Find the right colour and you won't even notice those bug eyes after a while. If going for a Leaf, come back and ask for advice on what to look for.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120319070#Comment_120319070

Fluence also looks more like a “conventional” car so will not cause many odd looks in the student car park 😀

akasudonim

Thanks, I didn't know the Fluence was the same. Only two on DD, 12 reg's at €5 and €6k ...

Is there a way to find out about the battery lease?

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120318965#Comment_120318965

She could get a Renault Fluence Z.E.

It's the exact same car underneath as a Leaf (same battery and drivetrain), much better looking, more comfortable ride, slower and has no fast charging at all. And be careful to only buy one that is battery owned (these were all battery lease originally)

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120318806#Comment_120318806

Sounds like you are angry more don’t agree with your crap commentary on the Leaf.

Id pick a leaf over BMW’s compliance 30e car any day of the week. It’s a superior car to the 30e in reliability standards. Doesn’t look as good and hasn’t got the bmw badge for the snobs so many discount the leaf because of that.

Best to Leaf it there so.

akasudonim

@the_amazing_raisin "Just consider yourself warned, this EV stuff can become an obsession. Before long you'll be comparing watt-hours per kilometre, debating where the charging port should be located, and planning to get solar panels installed 😉"

I'm afraid you're correct, Pandoras box has been opened! Solar, batteries, FIT, EV(s).. the Leaf might just be the start!

akasudonim

Funnily enough "damn ugly" was exactly the reaction i got this evening to Leaf pics! 🙄 Beggers and choosers was the reply!

kennethsmyth

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120315711#Comment_120315711

Yep my 2018 now has 96k kms on it as it just is so easy to get in and go for any trip

kennethsmyth

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120313778#Comment_120313778

Load of bull! The leaf is not a rejection of the ev world, in real terms it started the EV revolution. Others existed yes but the leaf is one of the most useful electric cars and seriously reliable.

kanuseeme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120318837#Comment_120318837

Valid will do.

unkel

@kanuseeme = "Again I will say a leaf is crap, anything but a leaf."

What a load of nonsense. Leaf (or Fluence Z.E.) is perfect for the OP's daughter. It can easily do the required range under any circumstances, costs nothing to run or maintain (daddy is paying the leccy bill) and has the cheapest tax / toll / insurance rating. And about zero depreciation. A very reliable car.

You do have a valid concern about remaining range once the day trip is done and the car hasn't been charged yet. The OPs daughter needs to be very aware of this. And of course a Leaf is damn ugly 😂

kanuseeme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120318663#Comment_120318663

you asked for it, you got it, you said what "concern" and I showed you,

I am constantly arguing with my own comments threw back at me piece by piece.

I offered a Prius with 20 km range and explained only 5 litres of petrol needed a week, my estimate for the outlander is so close to the 30 km it was not worth calculating, but I could use the other "experts" assessment of 22 km, which is 3 liters of fuel a week, for 30 km a day x 5 days.

Middle of the road is not bad in my opinion, and a free safety margin which in my mind is priceless.

I have no idea what no point is 2 measuring is about,

Again I will say a leaf is crap, anything but a leaf.

The J Stands for Jay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120315834#Comment_120315834

Ubiquitous and awful?

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120318543#Comment_120318543

You done exactly the same by pulling a line from a paragraph so don’t kid yourself.

30km requirement, recommend an Outlander PHEV 😮 That’s outrageous.

Leaf 30 kWh would be an ideal car for the OP’s criteria. Heck, a 24 kWh Leaf would be ideal at cheaper again with the same mod cons.

I wouldn’t recommend a PHEV for many situations tbh as they are not the best at anything nor the worse at anything. Kinda stuck in the middle sitting on the fence.

Anyway, the OP has some thinking to do if he wants to alter his initial criteria, the advice will no doubt change.

No point is 2 measuring d1cks with each other anymore.

kanuseeme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120318482#Comment_120318482

Honestly thought it was brilliant and I thanked him for it,

The hauling around thing is rubbish, same could be said for a leaf with a few bars missing, which in fact is dead weight, it does not work, thats why bars are missing.

The phev thing works best when plugged in, works when not plugged in, again I will say I misread the budget, I gave an honest cost for driving a phev, for the 30 km trip.

Plugging in a phev is a chore, yet its a teaching aid for a leaf. Thats funny.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120318129#Comment_120318129

The point is the PHEV is more expensive to run and as it has more (problematic and necessary to maintain) components, it is more likely to break down and need repairs.

The 70km Leaf was an example of my previous 2012 Leaf with the older and terrible battery. The point there was that even an 11 year old Leaf was still more than enough to cover the requirements set out by the OP.....but he was looking at a newer car with a bigger battery.

You have made your opinion known, but seem angry that others disagree with your opinion. We can only use our own experience to help the OP answer the question. Mine is primarily with petrol cars and BEVs. For me, a PHEV fits only a very, very narrow use case which leans heavily on emergency (or fearful) situations where a BEV is otherwise perfectly suited.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120318182#Comment_120318182

Indeed some strategy from the Gov would be great. We are more likely to see Elephant fly in the morning.

A PHEV will certainly offer greater security than a BEV (unless it breaks down). My old man placed a bet with my BIL that my new Leaf would run out of battery at least once in the first 3 months of ownership. Well, 6 years later and it still hasn't happened. We have been full BEV for almost 6 years now.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120318482#Comment_120318482

I fall into that category too. Got rid of a nice petrol Merc and got myself a little Leaf. We had a Zafira which was used once or twice over the next couple of months before we picked up a second Leaf which was going for good money. Since then, I have hated anytime I had to drive an ICE vehicle for work, or on holiday rentals. I was in Austria last month working for 2 weeks. Had a diesel Opel something rental. I drove it from the airport to the hotel and left it parked up the whole time while I car pooled with colleagues. I drove it back to the airport and was glad to throw the key into the return box.

kanuseeme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120318433#Comment_120318433

You stated "The OP has shared no such concerns that I can see" you only saw the bit after it on expensive bullsh1t, lapped it up, now I am "wrong"

Maybe I am, but to put so much effort into persuading some that "138 km range estimated by the car. It can travel ~120km during summer time. Extreme cold like last week ~80" is a fantastic car for a young woman, that's from the add, in case your still on the phone. your joke not mine.

I put a argument up, pull a word or sentence out of it and on it goes on and on, make a reply and come back with another one just like the concern comment,

I said anything but a leaf for her, anything,

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120318182#Comment_120318182

A robust debate is a very polite way to put it 😂

The Zoe is definitely smaller than the Leaf, I think it's a full segment down. I guess Polo vs Golf or i20 vs i30 would be the best comparison I can think of

The trick with PHEVs is that they work best when you run on electricity as much as possible. So you'll probably be plugging in every night, otherwise you get a petrol car hauling around a dead battery

It's really up to you how much self discipline you think you have

You'll probably be plugging in the EV most days anyway but the knowledge that if you forget to charge it then you're going nowhere kinda sharpens the mind 😁

About the car becoming the regular use vehicle, this is something which a lot of people here have experienced, including myself. A few years ago we had a Citroen C3 and a Leaf 24kWh

Now you'd think we'd use the C3 for every journey beyond the Leaf's range right? Wrong, we'd often use the Leaf even if it involved a top up on an ESB charger. There were only two times we used the C3, and to be fair one of those was Dublin to Limerick in January, which would be way beyond a Leaf's capabilities

I'll admit part of the reason why we used the Leaf was because I generally drove and I hated the Citroen. The French can build supersonic passenger aircraft, nuclear power plants and even an aircraft carrier, but are apparently incapable of designing a small hatchback car. That yolk was simultaneously uncomfortable, unpleasant to drive, unreliable and inefficient 🙄

So not much surprise the Leaf became the go to car 😂

Just consider yourself warned, this EV stuff can become an obsession. Before long you'll be comparing watt-hours per kilometre, debating where the charging port should be located, and planning to get solar panels installed 😉

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120318428#Comment_120318428

You can start by quoting the full text

“but also that would carry an addtional cost in terms of servicing and maintenance. The Leaf (or equiv) for the daily commute and plugged in nightly would work for us - and take the audi when a longer trip is planned. Key word is needs planning!

But I think for the low mileage, if I were doing PHEV I might as well have a small petrol - not in a rush so will think a little more on it.”

But listen, if you’re going to ignore everything else, you’re right and everyone else is wrong.

kanuseeme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120318310#Comment_120318310

Are you on a phone?

Lads it's a good robust discussion - I'd probably underestimated the security of the longer range a PHEV would provide, and that security is really important

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120318289#Comment_120318289

Both of his cars were 24 kWh cars, one was the original pre-updated battery from 2010.

The 2012 24 kWh leaf is pre lizard battery used in the 2014 onwards so half the range of the 2014 car.

The OP linked 30 kWh cars maybe you’re reading on the phone again and missed that bit?

The OP has shared no such concerns that I can see and has stated they wouldn’t waste their time on a PHEV at that level as they may as well buy a small petrol.

kanuseeme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120318251#Comment_120318251

Read here https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120317627/#Comment_120317627 you even thanked him, I am leaving this now, as I have made my opinion known and the OP has shared his own concerns. Nothing more I can do.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120318129#Comment_120318129

Where are you getting 70km from a 30 kWh leaf?

You’ve gave your opinion that you think PHEV is better. Others have gave theirs why BEV is better yet you clutch at straws about possible scenarios that may never happen.

It’s just sad that this happens FFS. To quote yourself 🧐

akasudonim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120317956#Comment_120317956

It would be great if the Gov gave people a chance to plan with an early indication of their plan, like the tolls changes or the change to the SEAI grants! Yes they've indicated changes, but specifics would be good ... That would mean they'd have a strategy though!

Lads it's a good robust discussion - I'd probably underestimated the security of the longer range a PHEV would provide, and that security is really important - but also that would carry an addtional cost in terms of servicing and maintenance. The Leaf (or equiv) for the daily commute and plugged in nightly would work for us - and take the audi when a longer trip is planned. Key word is needs planning!

But I think for the low mileage, if I were doing PHEV I might as well have a small petrol - not in a rush so will think a little more on it.

Re the Zoe, it looks a lot smaller than the Leaf. I'd prefer her in seomthing bigger, but I've never been in one so maybe bigger than it looks? Thanks

kanuseeme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120317929#Comment_120317929

Your grasping now, Tax is 50 euro more a year, I serviced my 2017 330e for 200 euro, greater chance of something going wrong, I have tried to get that across for 2 pages now, but its fine as long she does not drive a hybrid.

70 km leaf is a good alternative FFS. its just sad the excuses people here will come up with.

I have made my opinion known, If no one see's a problem then that's ok, sure as hell it will not be me or mine.

zg3409

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120314878#Comment_120314878

Tolls discount may be not gone in June. It will probably be extended but it's not 100% confirmed. It will be reviewed each year.