The key elements include six high speed charging hubs on motorways capable of charging eight vehicles simultaneously; 16 high speed charging hubs capable of charging four vehicles simultaneously; additional high power chargers at 34 current 50 kW locations; upgrading over 50 22 kW chargers to 50 kW, and replacing up to 264 locations with 528 charge points at the pre-existing pilot grade of 22 kW to next generation high reliability models.
Yeah we find ourselves time and time again trying to solve the charging issue, when in reality it’s just a case of if enough chargers were installed then none of these solutions would be required because there would be no problems…..
I bet they never have these discussions on Norwegian Boards…… and I’d love to know if anyone in Norway ever has to queue up….
You do see so called LoaderStat (queues) on Bjorn's videos. However queuing theory tells us that one location with 16 charge points results in much better queue performance than 8 locations with 2 charge points. I experienced this myself in Christmas '21 in the UK, there was a queue for the charger at Rugby but with 12 CCS stations to wait on there seemed to be a car finishing every couple of minutes meaning the queue moved quickly.
Saved you the bother of looking for it,
queueing starts at around 9 minutes, and at 12 minutes, Bjron thinks 30 minutes of queueing before you wait another 20 or 60 minutes is not too bad, LoL.
Can put timed charge into place, no good when the EV you are in does not have the battery to reach next destination point. There are loads of EVs out there that don't. Even in my S I would have to charge to 94% in Castlebellingham to reach the next SuC enroute in Scotland, that last 14% took fooking ages in a throttled 85battery pack.
Tesla (who have charging perfected) do have time of use charging but only because legislatively required in some regions, otherwise it's pay per use
Ladestau is a real thing in Norway. But it's not usually for Tesla cars - with some exceptions. Look at the infrastructure they have over there. There's multiple private companies with 4-6-8+ installed HPCs, Tesla have sites with 20+ SuC stalls, Ionity have 6-8 per site and are usually overwhelmed.
They have tiered pricing in Norway too, with a per kWh and per minute timed charge in a lot of places.
I'd be ecstatic if "they" could literally copy and paste norway and put it in place here.
Most Europe including Norway has kWh+min charging. Just FASTNED doesn't, from the largest networks.
It's simply because no resource is infinite and because time based charging guarantees a better resource allocation. That's the reason why it's preferred.
@ELM327 is right. No need to reinvent the wheel - copy Norway and other more advanced EV markets. In policy, in charger layouts, in charging network regulation, in charging pricing etc. The Irish solution has failed (because it doesn't exist and it's not needed).
EDIT: If even the richest of the richest and the most EV-agile and EV-experienced Norway has time-based component in charging pricing that tells you that it's probably right.
eCars and everybody involved with chargers should watch this video. Circle K in Norway got Bjorn Nyland to consult about chargers.
No. Simple put a few AC poles in different spaces. No need ever to mix DC and AC
Is it though? CircleK NO disagrees with you. I have Elli covering most of Europe and paying per kWh
From what I know EnBW does not operate time charging prices, Ionity doesn't, Gridserve doesn't, Shell doesn't. Who does?
You use the word simple and then propose a solution that's both more complicated and expensive.
It’s very simple and frees up the DC chargers.
just run a cable in a duct or cable tray and pit AC chargers in front of parking bays.
Ionity Kill North, VW card would not start the machine no matter what i did, nor did the ionity app - big thank you to the ID4 driver who informedme the VW app worked it, and it worked perfect. Big thanks.
Ofcourse Easy Go, gave me plenty headaches later, there needs to be a more standardised payment menthod.
Would probably still lose money, AC charge points only make sense as a loss leader for attracting people to a site
I still think that's Ecars BS. Think about it logically for a few mins, a 3 phase Zappi costs around €1,115. I know that Ecars don't use Zappis but it's an indication of the cost of the AC chargers they use.
They shouldn't really cost more than €2,500 for those 2x22kw pillars they use
Then there's the connection fee to ESBN which should be €5,820 for a 50kVA business connection according to the ESB site
Then trenching and installation fees, maybe €7,500 say?
So the whole thing should cost around €16k. I seriously doubt they can install a DC charger for that price, probably closer to double that
And that's assuming you don't do any economy of scale, like putting in 6x7kW chargers instead of the pair of 22kW ones to maximise the number of cars taking in kilowatts per site
Why would you compare the costs of installing a DC charger versus the cost of installing an AC charge point when deciding whether it's profitable to install an AC point?
My claim that a commercial grade AC point isn't profitable is based on info from the EV Charging Strategy report, that indicates over a 10 year period the AC charge point will not break even once you've covered equipment, installation, and operating costs such as data connections, parking space rent and maintenance.
A DC charger has much higher costs, but can sell electricity much quicker and has longer periods of productive occupancy due to the use it and move it usage pattern.
Well like I've said before, the strategy is only as good as the analysis that went into it
I agree that DC chargers are more profitable in the short term and probably the quickest answer to the public charging pit that Ecars have dug themselves into
I don't agree that AC charging doesn't turn a profit and I think there's plenty of evidence from across Europe that it works when done at scale
I think the way Ecars install them as solitary 22kW pillars is very inefficient and feeds into why they aren't making much money from them
The cynic in me also suspects that Ecars inflated the costs of the chargers to argue for more incentives and also to make DC charging look more attractive by comparison
To be clear, I'm not against DC chargers. I just think they're part of the solution, not the whole solution in and of itself
I think the only thing that makes EVs truly appealing to people without driveways is if they have banks of AC chargers on their street that they can use for overnight charging
Can you show any examples where a commercial operator is rolling out AC charging. Generally from what I've seen it's either delivered as a service by a local authority, or as a value add in a multi storey car park. The AC charging itself doesn't appear to be worth it as a standalone business, which matches the statements in the Dublin EV strategy.
These models were based on the following modelling, the numbers do not seem massively overblown
Is that some aggregator or reseller?
Elli is the charging providers for all VW group cars
sorry to ask again, whats the site that user here has for stats on ESB chargers?
Ecars Usage stats (ecars-stats.com)
You're missing 2 key factors that shouldn't be overlooked
This idea that AC isn't profitable is absolute horse manure from ESB. If it was true they would surely have changed them all to DC chargers by now
Is there any part of the costs in the report that you would disagree with?
The reason they aren't profitable is due to installation and equipment costs. Once the AC charger is installed you don't get the installation costs back as a refund.
I think a lot of the reason they aren't profitable was poor planning on Ecars part
Take Dublin City for example, they put a bunch of AC chargers in, said parking was free, DCC said actually parking wasn't free
So now you don't get free parking but at least you get free charging, cool
Then charges for AC come in and all of a sudden nobody is using AC chargers because it's cheaper to charge at home
Or taking any other town, they're only using the AC for a couple of hours to take advantage of free parking, so the number of kWh sold doesn't justify the cost of the charger
This is probably down to the fact that EVs are more popular with drivers who have a home charger already
So my argument is that instead of resigning AC to unprofitable, perhaps Ecars should be looking to tap the large market of potential drivers out there who do not have a driveway
And I think that by working at scale they could make AC look more profitable in the long term.
For example, they could carry out enablement works on entire streets to put in ducting and extra metering for 7kW AC chargers. Then maybe do a deal with permit holders that they can request a charger gets installed.
That could probably be funded by the local authority public charging grants
You could also make the requestor pay a fee to have a charger installed, which immediately brings the installation cost down. It'd still be a "public" charger since the spaces in most areas aren't reserved and you'd need some kind of payment system, but you'd probably need something to stop everyone requesting a charger straight away
There could be discounts for permit holders to charge at night since that'll encourage better use of the grid
So to some degree, I agree with @liamog that AC is best used as a value adder for a business, but it doesn't have to be a coat adder at the same time. And the Dublin EV charging strategy was commissioned by the councils, so it does make sense to find the best approach for the residents of the city
Again, we don't need to reinvent the wheel. Other countries like Norway, Netherlands, California*, other parts of central europe and so on. * yes I know CA isnt a country per se but you get my drift.
Just do what they do. They have AC in lots of places. Some free to use at restaurants, shopping malls etc. Some not free to use, in residential areas, at parks, etc. Then there's varying DC chargers with varying speeds and increasing price with increasing charge speed. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if we CTRL V norway to here we'd be light years further along.
The system in the Netherlands is very like that, as a resident you can request that an AC charger is installed for you if there isn't one within 500m of your home. The councils fund the equipment and they are then ran by a commercial company.
The company running the equipment then doesn't have to worry about covering the capital costs as they are centrally funded. That turns it into the 2nd graph from the Dublin report meaning that the CPO is making a profit after 6 years based on a charging premium of 10c/kWh over cost.
For a start it's not 27c to charge on AC and I'd be surprised if they were only making 10c on every unit, given that it's free when the wind blows and the ESBN fee can probably be written off as that money is kept internally anyway
But aside from that it's accurate
If you assume these figures are correct, which I'd question, it costs ESB €39,600 to install and maintain a unit over 20 years and they make 10c profit per unit of electricity
Per year they need to make €1,980 before turning a profit
At 10c/unit that equates to 19,800 units or 9,900 units per plug.
Each plug delivers 7kW or 7kWh/h so needs to be used for 1,415 hours per year to turn a profit
24 hrs = 60 days - 16.5% time in use
8 hrs = 176 days - 48% time in use
Break even is 3.87hrs of daily use or 16.12% of time in use
The example from the document is based on the prices at the time the report was created. The important value is the differential between electricity cost and sale price. eCars fees have gone up as the price of commercial energy has. eCars do not get to write off the grid connection fees because they are part of the same group.
On this thread and others it's clear you don't understand the separation between ESBN which is a licensed entity acting on behalf of the CRU and under the direction of Eirgrid. They are responsible for the maintenance and development of the medium and low voltage networks. Their costs are regulated and set by the CRU and aren't just made up because a mate in another part of ESB asked for a favour.
I think your pushing it by expecting a commercial AC charger to have a life time of 20 years. The model goes to 10 years which would be a reasonable time to expect some return on investment. Maybe if you think you can do a better job offering commercial chargers then you should launch a company to do so, you clearly see a better business opportunity than eCars, the numbers by the Dublin study or all the other commercial operators which are failing to launch their huge networks.
I think that's actually a decent model, my only major concern would be if there's a flood of demand and suddenly it's akin to a HSE waiting list
There'd need to be some control of some kind, perhaps requesting proof of ownership of an EV or PHEV so that people aren't just requesting chargers just for the sake of it
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