nav[aria-label="Primary Navigation"] { padding: 0; & ul { list-style: none; width: 100%; display: flex; flex-direction: row; justify-content: start; align-items: start; gap: 30px; padding: 0; & li { margin: 0; } & ul li { list-style: none; } } }

Child Item

Sacked without warning or proper reason provided

2011

I'm asking for a friend ....(no seriously I am).

So my friend "Fred" has been with a full time employee with his company for over twenty years. Fred has been a manager for more than half that time. All appraisals (written and verbal) and all other feedback over this entire period have been positive.

Last week he was asked to have an "informal chat" with someone far more senior. When he entered the office for this chat the HR manager was also present, nobody else. It was an ambush! Fred was told he was a "problem" and that for "the good of the business" he would have to "step aside" (essentially, he was being sacked). It was further explained that he did not "get along with people". Fred challenged this and asked for these people to join the meeting but this fell on deaf ears. Fred was told that he was being suspended on full pay for a few weeks prior to his employment being terminated. A settlement offer would be made by the weekend (this offer never materialised, but they did email looking for return of work laptop etc..). Following conclusion of the meeting Fred was removed form the building and told that he would permanently be denied entry. Fred has reason to believe that the offer will be the statutory minimum. No further explanation was provided for the termination of his employment (either written or verbal) despite repeated demands from Fred.

In the absence of any verbal or written warnings I would assume that this behaviour is completely illegal and therefore Fred can force them to reinstate him, this is what he would like. However, this is not my area at all. Fred is in a financial bind, he really needs this job. He has always been a dedicated worker and his house is now at risk for reasons that I can not go into.

IMHO the real reason for his dismissal is that that the company wants to cut it's workforce and managers demand higher salaries, simple as.

Can anyone advise on the best course of action for Fred? Who should he contact / report this to ?

I understand that it is not permitted to provide legal advice, so please refrain from this.

Thanks in advance.

Find more posts tagged with

Quick Links

Comments

Augme

Contact a solicitor immediately and start a process with the WRC. What they have done is absolutely illegal, now reinstatement is not guaranteed but a significant financial settlement very likely is. But as I said, it's essential to get onto a solicitor immediately and get them to start negotiating a settlement on his behalf. But ideally, they should at least be able to ensure he remains suspended with pay until the process is completed.

Mrs OBumble

+1 the above.

The terms of the settlement should be WAAYYY better than statutory minimum, and include a positive written reference and on-going willingness to act as a referee.

the_amazing_raisin

So in terms of legality, it sounds like he's being made redundant rather than dismissed because they're giving him a financial settlement

The company is able to do this and they can argue that he's no longer required for his role. I think for individuals they don't have to perform any form of engagement, they just need to give adequate notice

They can also suspend the person during the notice period if they believe there could be issues having them around (e.g. pour water over the company servers or something)

Of course it's obviously BS based on the meeting with the senior manager, but companies have been using redundancy as a way to get rid of people they don't want for years

I'd second getting the WRC involved, however lacking written evidence or witnesses they'll only have their word to go on. I don't think this will play against them however it's important to have everything in order (previous assessment, company reports, etc.)

I'd also be wary of their expectations. They might like their job, but it's obvious the company wants them gone and even if they get reinstated the bosses will just make their life hell until they quit

Frankly, get a solicitor to argue up the severance package to something decent and then take the money and run would be my view

Jim2007

The reality is that everyone even "Fred" will paint the situation in the best light for themselves. If the company wanted to cut costs they would do in the normal manner via redundancy. An immediate termination and being escorted off the premises only happens after very serious misconduct has been discovered and is almost always done in line with legal advice and in situations where any settlement with the employee pales in comparison to the issue being dealt with.

Your best bet is to advise "Fred" to seek legal advice and then keep out of it.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120294731#Comment_120294731

But he has been told he is being let go for reasons of complaints by colleagues. So that messes up the redundancy argument of role no longer available

CrookedJack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120294731#Comment_120294731

People can't be made redundant, roles are. If his role is redundant they must tell him that, which they didn't. They asked him to "Step aside" and indicated that there are issues with him personally, rather than the role he occupies.

So legally speaking there is absolutely nothing pointing to redundancy here.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120294886#Comment_120294886

redundancies also require a period of consultation. the employer has really fecked this up.

2011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120294886#Comment_120294886

Exactly.

Any manager will have disagreements with others, that goes with the territory. If Fred was handling these disagreements in an inappropriate or substandard manner this should have been highlighted to him, it wasn’t. Instead they gave him very positive appraisals.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120294760#Comment_120294760

You are reasoning backwards here.

The company didn't behave in a normal manner in terminating "Fred" therefore he's probably guilty of very serious misconduct.

iwillhtfu

Fred needs to put all communication on record now. It's too late now but at the time of the initial interview and HR being present he should have requested a union rep if he's in one and if not you can still request one.

A **** situation but as above they'll likely put it down to redundancy. HR will likely forget the complaints from colleagues remark

JustAThought

Fred has a right to see the complaints made against him, a right to reply to each -and have them property investigated, a right to due process for each ( if they exist): in a timely fashion, and to be given multiple opportunities to improve - for which the company has to give training and feedback .He also Had a right ( requirement) to have the agenda of the ( cery serious) meeting notified to him IN ADVANCE of the meeting and by not even doing this they removed his right to have a/his union rep OR solicitor support snd represent him at this meeting. Fred also had the right to a timely minutes of this meeting including attendees abd duration - agreed minutes - not one sides version.

Fred needs to get a proper HR layer onto his case at the workplace labour comission or whatever they call it now so that fred can get the bucketfull of gold they will have to pay him for this absolute fiasco of a firing. Go FRED.

JustAThought

typing bad - sorry -wonky hand

JustAThought

Growleaves: I believe you missed the memo about not guilty just because allegedly annonomously accused by invisible unaccountable complainants.

mm_surf

And there's previous case law that says you can't sack an employee for performance issues (gross negligence/behavior aside) without giving them an opportunity to rectify the issue(s) first

IIRC, the WRC can award up to two years pay as compensation. Statutory redundancy for 20 years work would be 41 weeks pay (2 weeks per year of service, plus a week, and capped at 600 euro a week)

Depending on tax situation, WRC may be preferable.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120295029#Comment_120295029

Fred is a manager. Unions are irrelevant.

There may be misconduct. He may have píssed someone off. Either way, his career there is over.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120294986#Comment_120294986

So which part of the sentence did you not understand:

"An immediate termination and being escorted off the premises only happens after very serious misconduct has been discovered and is almost always done in line with legal advice and in situations where any settlement with the employee pales in comparison to the issue being dealt with."

2011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120294986#Comment_120294986

If Fred was guilty of "very serious misconduct" why would they not fire him on the spot for this and state that this is the case?

2011

Update: Fred just got an offer email. In it they mention "redundant" or "redundancy", I'm not sure which as I did not see the email. The offer is the statutory minimum.

Therefore, it would seem that their story is changing from Fred being a problem to making Fred redundant.

My understanding is that there is an entire procedure around making someone redundant. For starters, I would expect that Fred should have been told to bring a witness with him or someone to support him. Instead, he was told that it was an “informal chat”. Who brings a supporter to an informal chat?

I don't think the poor guy has slept in almost a week.

This stinks!

spaceHopper

I'd be wasting your time typing any reply other than see at a good lawyer. They've gone about it so badly that it's shocking HR were even there and allowed it to be conducted in this manner. Under similar circumstances a twitter exec took a high court action.

Don't waste time as the company could be in finical trouble and about to fold. See a lawyer tomorrow

iwillhtfu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120295057#Comment_120295057

It is not irrelevant at all and that is speaking from experience. Regardless of who he pissed off there is a process to follow unless it's some **** show of a company and with him being there 20 years I doubt it is.

iwillhtfu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120295172#Comment_120295172

This would be the best advice to follow. There's little point further entertaining the company, his days there are over.

Best of luck to him and the positives are it's still hard to find skilled labour.

GNWoodd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120295057#Comment_120295057

Why would the unions be irrelevant ? Surely not !

caviardreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120295415#Comment_120295415

Agree here - managers have a right to union repesentation too. Maybe not the CEO but absolutely normal management grades do and could be a useful avenue here.

Cork Lass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120295057#Comment_120295057

100% incorrect. Plenty of managers are union members. Obviously I can't speak for the person concerned but plenty of managers all over Ireland are union members.

2011

He is not a union member.

As per my opening post he was “ambushed”. He was only asked to engage in an “informal chat”.

fred is now seeking legal advice and has contacted the WRC

Without a doubt he pissed some people off, but that role necessitates making unpopular decisions at times. If any of his actions were inappropriate, unacceptable or not in the company’s best interest he should have been advised or reprimanded accordingly.

Fingers crossed!

Oscar_Madison

The company haven’t followed the process for redundancy in Ireland so that’s the first thing. Part of this process is exploring alternative work or roles within the firm.

It wasn’t a disciplinary hearing either and again no process followed.

The fact a “HR Manager” was present along with a chief big wig surprises me- even the most idiotic HR manager wouldn’t risk such a farce taking place- if they gave advice to conduct this meeting this way, they may not be HR Manager for much longer.

However, I’m wondering are you getting the whole story from “Fred” OP? With 20 years service I’m assuming this is a reputable company and professionals working there? Could you even indicate the industry?

Assuming the above, somethings not right- in general, even when you see companies unfairly sack someone, they tend to put up at least an effort of a charade- it doesn’t seem like that to me. If it’s a restaurant or pub or a nite club I’d probably go yeah, it wouldn’t be far off what to expect but I’m assuming this is a proper corporate or similar?

2011

Let’s assume Fred has done something really daft, it would still seem to me that the company has handled this in a highly inappropriate manner.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120296606#Comment_120296606

From Citizen's Advice:

What are grounds for instant dismissal?

Gross misconduct can lead to instant or immediate dismissal without notice or pay in lieu of notice. Examples of gross misconduct include:

Assault

Drunkenness

Stealing

Bullying

A serious breach of your employer's policies and practices

As someone else said, tell your friend to get some legal advice, and leave it at that. Nobody here can tell if the employer acted inappropriately.

2011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120296792#Comment_120296792

Understood, he will seek legal advice.

I accept your point about gross misconduct but this accusation has never been made by the company verbally or in writing.

average_runner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120294909#Comment_120294909

Not always, depends on the number of redundancies.