The key elements include six high speed charging hubs on motorways capable of charging eight vehicles simultaneously; 16 high speed charging hubs capable of charging four vehicles simultaneously; additional high power chargers at 34 current 50 kW locations; upgrading over 50 22 kW chargers to 50 kW, and replacing up to 264 locations with 528 charge points at the pre-existing pilot grade of 22 kW to next generation high reliability models.
Can you show any examples where a commercial operator is rolling out AC charging. Generally from what I've seen it's either delivered as a service by a local authority, or as a value add in a multi storey car park. The AC charging itself doesn't appear to be worth it as a standalone business, which matches the statements in the Dublin EV strategy.
These models were based on the following modelling, the numbers do not seem massively overblown
Well like I've said before, the strategy is only as good as the analysis that went into it
I agree that DC chargers are more profitable in the short term and probably the quickest answer to the public charging pit that Ecars have dug themselves into
I don't agree that AC charging doesn't turn a profit and I think there's plenty of evidence from across Europe that it works when done at scale
I think the way Ecars install them as solitary 22kW pillars is very inefficient and feeds into why they aren't making much money from them
The cynic in me also suspects that Ecars inflated the costs of the chargers to argue for more incentives and also to make DC charging look more attractive by comparison
To be clear, I'm not against DC chargers. I just think they're part of the solution, not the whole solution in and of itself
I think the only thing that makes EVs truly appealing to people without driveways is if they have banks of AC chargers on their street that they can use for overnight charging
Why would you compare the costs of installing a DC charger versus the cost of installing an AC charge point when deciding whether it's profitable to install an AC point?
My claim that a commercial grade AC point isn't profitable is based on info from the EV Charging Strategy report, that indicates over a 10 year period the AC charge point will not break even once you've covered equipment, installation, and operating costs such as data connections, parking space rent and maintenance.
A DC charger has much higher costs, but can sell electricity much quicker and has longer periods of productive occupancy due to the use it and move it usage pattern.
I still think that's Ecars BS. Think about it logically for a few mins, a 3 phase Zappi costs around €1,115. I know that Ecars don't use Zappis but it's an indication of the cost of the AC chargers they use.
They shouldn't really cost more than €2,500 for those 2x22kw pillars they use
Then there's the connection fee to ESBN which should be €5,820 for a 50kVA business connection according to the ESB site
Then trenching and installation fees, maybe €7,500 say?
So the whole thing should cost around €16k. I seriously doubt they can install a DC charger for that price, probably closer to double that
And that's assuming you don't do any economy of scale, like putting in 6x7kW chargers instead of the pair of 22kW ones to maximise the number of cars taking in kilowatts per site
Would probably still lose money, AC charge points only make sense as a loss leader for attracting people to a site
Ionity Kill North, VW card would not start the machine no matter what i did, nor did the ionity app - big thank you to the ID4 driver who informedme the VW app worked it, and it worked perfect. Big thanks.
Ofcourse Easy Go, gave me plenty headaches later, there needs to be a more standardised payment menthod.
It’s very simple and frees up the DC chargers.
just run a cable in a duct or cable tray and pit AC chargers in front of parking bays.
You use the word simple and then propose a solution that's both more complicated and expensive.
Is it though? CircleK NO disagrees with you. I have Elli covering most of Europe and paying per kWh
From what I know EnBW does not operate time charging prices, Ionity doesn't, Gridserve doesn't, Shell doesn't. Who does?
No. Simple put a few AC poles in different spaces. No need ever to mix DC and AC
eCars and everybody involved with chargers should watch this video. Circle K in Norway got Bjorn Nyland to consult about chargers.
Most Europe including Norway has kWh+min charging. Just FASTNED doesn't, from the largest networks.
It's simply because no resource is infinite and because time based charging guarantees a better resource allocation. That's the reason why it's preferred.
@ELM327 is right. No need to reinvent the wheel - copy Norway and other more advanced EV markets. In policy, in charger layouts, in charging network regulation, in charging pricing etc. The Irish solution has failed (because it doesn't exist and it's not needed).
EDIT: If even the richest of the richest and the most EV-agile and EV-experienced Norway has time-based component in charging pricing that tells you that it's probably right.
Ladestau is a real thing in Norway. But it's not usually for Tesla cars - with some exceptions. Look at the infrastructure they have over there. There's multiple private companies with 4-6-8+ installed HPCs, Tesla have sites with 20+ SuC stalls, Ionity have 6-8 per site and are usually overwhelmed.
They have tiered pricing in Norway too, with a per kWh and per minute timed charge in a lot of places.
I'd be ecstatic if "they" could literally copy and paste norway and put it in place here.
Can put timed charge into place, no good when the EV you are in does not have the battery to reach next destination point. There are loads of EVs out there that don't. Even in my S I would have to charge to 94% in Castlebellingham to reach the next SuC enroute in Scotland, that last 14% took fooking ages in a throttled 85battery pack.
Tesla (who have charging perfected) do have time of use charging but only because legislatively required in some regions, otherwise it's pay per use
Saved you the bother of looking for it,
queueing starts at around 9 minutes, and at 12 minutes, Bjron thinks 30 minutes of queueing before you wait another 20 or 60 minutes is not too bad, LoL.
You do see so called LoaderStat (queues) on Bjorn's videos. However queuing theory tells us that one location with 16 charge points results in much better queue performance than 8 locations with 2 charge points. I experienced this myself in Christmas '21 in the UK, there was a queue for the charger at Rugby but with 12 CCS stations to wait on there seemed to be a car finishing every couple of minutes meaning the queue moved quickly.
Yeah we find ourselves time and time again trying to solve the charging issue, when in reality it’s just a case of if enough chargers were installed then none of these solutions would be required because there would be no problems…..
I bet they never have these discussions on Norwegian Boards…… and I’d love to know if anyone in Norway ever has to queue up….
Didn't we already discuss the reasons why 80% was a bad candidate for a charging cut off. As a rule of thumb it doesn't make sense due to the many different charging profiles.
The percentage of output idea sounds promising but you run into a problem where it's the charger restricting the charge rate instead of the car. Consumers shouldn't be punished for infra restrictions
Per minute payment should kick in (in addition to per kWh payment) once the car reaches 80% SoC…..
or
When the rate of charge your car is taking is only at 40%/50% of what the charger is capable of putting out…. ?(or something to that effect…..)
so of course you can go to 100% if you want, but you’ll be penalised for it…
Fully agree with this - a timed component is not a trustworthy part of a charge for exactly the reasons you mention: The AG one that was only giving 25kW, or there's one stall at Kill that was only going up to 40kW, and you would definitely be there for a longer time because of that.
Timed components should only kick in like Tesla - once you're finished charging, there's a per minute charge to encourage you to "go or get off the pot". Tesla also have a way to double the per minute fee if the site is at 100% occupancy -- Although, since it's ESB we're talking about here that would typically be the case as most sites have historically been SPOF. 🙂
That's kind of why I reckon the per minute rate should only kick in after a set time. If the charger doesn't deliver a decent amount of power then the operator won't make any money on the kWhs before the time rate starts
The time component in pricing opens a whole discussion of abuse from the provider. Remember the few weeks ago at AG when everyone was reporting speeds of 25kW? The provider can blame your car. How do you prove them wrong? Unless you get a charger which can prove that it delivers low power doe to the car's request this practice is questionable and some consumer protection bodies banned it.
I agree, having a time component to the price encourages efficiency. I think data compression was at its best during the days of dial up internet 😂
Personally I think the per minute rate should change during the session. First 15 mins €0/min, 16-45 mins say €0.30/min, after that €1/min. That'll stop any overstays for good
I doubt Freshmile are making a loss on this. More than likely they are buying from ESB at a wholesale rate. Of course they could raise their prices but I'd think they would have done that by now if they were to
I'm not going to bother signing up for yet another app as I rarely public charge anyway, but I would be a fan of the dynamic pricing. It promotes good charging behavior and disincentivizes long stays
Saw this on Facebook. Possibly a cheaper way to use esb. May be more expensive in other situations. Often these cards change pricing too so typically end up a higher price than official esb app
This would be ideal.
Pavilions shopping centre has multiple chargers on multiple floors. I agree it would have been better to move them away from the doors to reduce ICEing, there should be a similar set up in all shopping centres but they typically only put a few so you can't rely on getting one free.
No, they are plugged into the bank of AC chargers…(little small green cylinder looking AC plugs) (it looks like the Superchargers are on this side, but they actually serve spots on the other side of the hedge…)
Great set up there.
"and never saw 1 of them ICE'd" Is that Model S ICE-ing a spot on the right if the picture :()
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