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Navan Rail Line

coolmangg

I have created a map of where I think the Navan Rail Line should go!
I cannot understand why the planners insist on passing to the west of Dunshaughlin when if they go to the east they can pick up additional passengers from Ratoath / Ashbourne thus increasing revenue/viability.

Also an easterly approach to Navan will allow them to use the existing Boyne bridge viaduct, and give access to a central station there.

See my map here.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&ll=53.547652,-6.459274&spn=0.390839,0.837021&z=11

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Pete_Cavan

He says "will be ready to go for planning for Navan Rail in 18 months" which suggestions submitting the RO. In reality, I'd say what Jim Meade means by "a team in place working on planning for Navan Rail" is that some IE staff have been asked to spend 5% of their time drawing lines on maps in MS Paint to keep politicians off his back. If they were seriously going to submit a RO, there would be consultants appointed to prepare the design because the entire line would have to be completely rebuilt.

Large chunks of the original alignment have been subsumed into fields, several locations have buildings built on it and in Navan part of the alignment is the access road to a recently built large school. There is no chance in hell that the ownship issues would be sorted in 18 months to allow them submit an RO. Even if the lands have tecnically remained in IE ownership since closure (I'm not sure if that is the case), there would be multiple claims of adverse possession. I'm sure they wont even get access to parts of the former alignment to carry out surveys until multiple court hearings have taken place.

Complete fantasy land stuff.

CatInABox

Was in the Station house in Kilmessan there there the other day, could still see the old stones from the station platform there. If you look over a fence, you can actually see the old rails still there. At least part of that building will have to go if the train does indeed use the old route there.

L1011

The old Batterstown station is long since converted to a private residents and has the trackbed as its garden; an extension on one platform and a smaller extension on to the trackbed. The road overbridge is still there and in use though, so its a case of deciding which is more disruptive/expensive there.

Vicxas

Seems silly to ignore Dunshaughlin, or are they just of the opinion that they have the Park and Ride in Dunboyne to service them.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120251801#Comment_120251801

There'd be a new station, either across the M3 if they go the old route fully, or to the east of Dunshauglin if they chose to pick a slightly newer route.

GeneHunt

Here's the 2009 - 2015 Local Area Plan for Dunshaughlin, one of the routes for the Navan Rail Line was shown in this plan (in purple just left of the M3 junction). I think the proposed station was to be located were I marked X on the map. The road (R125) crossing the rail line south of the "station" was a new section of road built as part of the M3 motorway contract, it is elevated with an embankment on each side, no underpass bridge was constructed at this location, however, there was a underpass bridge constructed nearer to Navan for a future rail line to pass under the M3 here. From memory this route west of Dunshaughlin wasn't popular at the time and another route east of Dunshaughlin was later proposed, (I'm looking for the map which shows the route) this second route was to appease the Ashbourne & Ratoath commuters at the time, but we didn't see a full route showing where the rail line would cross the L147 (Old N3) and the M3 to facilitate this route east of Dunshaughlin, I think this was councillors and politicians promising the earth, moon and stars for a vote, as there would be at least 4 extra bridges, because the rail line would have to cross both the L147 and the M3 south of Dunshaughlin and again north of the Dunshaughlin to return to the old trackbed again.

At that time there was no plan to use the old trackbed thought Kilmessan via The Station House, a new route was also proposed around Kilmessan, but I would imagine this whole area will be problematic as this is close to the Hill of Tara. Personally I'd like to see this project happen, but we've been promised this rail line for years and I can't see it ever happening at this stage. The best opportunity for this rail line to have happened was when the M3 was being planned / built and the space for the track could have been include along side a lot of the motorway, but that boat has sailed.

Dunshaughlin Local Area Plan (2009-2015) map.jpg

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120255994#Comment_120255994

Seems strange to have the rail line on the outside of the M3. It would make accessing the station hellish on foot/bicycle, which surely would be something that would want to be baked into the plan. I understand the desire to have a P&R at the station, but this doesn't seem very well thoughtout.

GeneHunt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120257781#Comment_120257781

Yeah, it's a little strange the location, but they couldn't really get the station any nearer without adding considerable cost with extra bridges to cross the M3. At least they tried to get it nearer to Dunshaughlin, and not stay with the old course through Drumree.

I don't think there is a plan to have a P&R at Dunshaughlin, looking at the size of the purple space allowed on the map above, I'm thinking 25 - 30 car spaces. In my head, I'm thinking this station might look like Maynooth Station with the Straffan Road (R406) next to it, similar to the R125 would be next to the Dunshaughlin Station.

GeneHunt

I found it!! The map that shows the "Preferred Rail Route Option B" in light blue. However, since this map was published in 2009, Dunshaughlin has grown a little and has a number of new estates around it and has now got a lot of the yellow areas show here built on or about to be built on now, so I've shaded in the route in grey where it is built on now.

Another note to consider, is where this Option B route crosses the route of the M3 Motorway is probably about the only place it can do it locally, as the M3 is changing grade here too and is coming out of a cutting after passing under the L2208 road and starts to rise up with embankments so it can cross over the old N3 (R147) just at the top of this map. So pushing the Rail Route out further from the village to avoid these new developments is problematic too.

Dunshaughlin (Adopted 22nd Sept 09)_1.png

CatInABox

The NTA looked at the Navan rail line in this report here.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/Navan-Rail-Line-Assessment-Report.pdf

Personally still think that this is going to follow option A, using the existing line all the way.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120273409#Comment_120273409

I don't think going around the northern side of the town is realistic now. I think the only option would be along the R125 parallel to the M3, then hug the M3 around as far as J7.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120273560#Comment_120273560

Selecting the original alignment is tantamount to deciding to do nothing. It has all the cost (as there is nothing reusable there, even much of the land would have to be bought back) with none of the benefits as it serves little population. The Business Case wont add up.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120273409#Comment_120273409

So no effort was made to preserve the alignment?

roadmaster

I cant under stand why they would go the orginal route. The population are mainly east of the M3. Surley they should bring public transport to the people not the other way.

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120273722#Comment_120273722

In most cases no. For the most part it was only with fairly recent abandonments such as North Kerry that the ownership of the alignment was retained; the old Harcourt Street line was a big exception. But even with the North Kerry there were several cases of encroachment that delayed extending the greenway to Listowel, despite the land still being in CIE ownership.

GeneHunt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120273722#Comment_120273722

No, and I haven't check, but the planning was probably already approved at that stage, anyway I personally think the option B (east of Dunshaughlin) was always a none runner.

GeneHunt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120273560#Comment_120273560

Thanks for that, I actually only stumbled upon that report last night, I wasn't aware of it and surprised at the recent date of it (Sept 2021), I most have a read of it.

Yeah, using the existing route is probably good, if the few remaining road bridges are still usable for the new rail line. However they still need to deviate from the existing route in places, obviously as discussed above, Drumree / Dunshaughlin, but also in Kilmessan and probably south of Navan

I told ya

IMHO, any reopening of the Clonsilla/Navan line would have to include Dunshaughlin and Ratoath and Ashbourne, in some shape or form. Or maybe treat it as a whole new line.

The old alignment is just that, 'old'. For what would be a major financial outlay, it really needs to serve the largest population spots. And by major financial outlay, I mean to include NO LCs. Was stopped at Coolmine LC this morning and the up Sligo train came crawling through the station about 5 minutes after the barriers came down. Ridiculous.

If the gov. are really serious about getting people out of their cars, then they need to put in place a proper, functioning PT system, be it rail or bus. And that is going to cost, big time.

No point in slavishly following an alignment form the 1860s that ignores growing towns, a few miles away.

Ronald Binge Redux

Detailed design work has already been done but hey, let's fork that into the bin and redesign everything from scratch.

It's the Irish way of ensuring it will never happen.

I told ya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800870#Comment_120800870

I haven't seen the design work. IMO, if it doesn't serve the growing population areas, what's the point. There's an awful lot of green fields between Dunboyne and Navan.

I'd have no problem putting 'detailed design work' in the bin and sack the the people who prepared it. I thought the aim was to help solve a growing PT problem and a growing population.

But, if you're happy to more or less follow the 1860s route, great. I'm sure the people of Dunshaughlin, Ratoath and Ashbourne will understand.

Pete_Cavan

I assume the detailed design referred to as "done" is that undertaken by 19th century engineers as no more detailed design has happened since then.

The Navan rail reopening is just something for local TDs or hopeful TDs to spoof about, IÉ don't even mention it for projects pre-2050.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800870#Comment_120800870

There was no detailed design. A preliminary route options study was conducted and the option that miraculously avoids all towns was selected, that was in the celtic tiger era

goingnowhere

A draft railway works order was prepared for Navan, route alignment, land requirements etc. Detailed design no.

The route is 99% the original Dublin and Meath route as the cost to divert to the east was ruled out, serious concerns as to archaeology issues if the route varied and the desire to reuse what infrastructure remains in place, there are several bridges and the rarely seen Boyne viaduct which is in good condition.

Its just a concept currently, no active work and no funding to proceed beyond the usual token its on our list

Ronald Binge Redux

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120801080#Comment_120801080

This refers: https://www.rod.ie/projects/navan-railway-line

The old trackbed goes through Drumree beside Junction 6 of the M3. If that doesn't serve Dunshaughlin then the Motorway doesn't serve Dunshaughlin either.

The other question is the cost/benefit analysis of a winding route that goes from M3 Parkway through Ratoath and Ashbourne and across country to Dunshaughlin. What are the journey times? How much land will need to be CPO'd and how much will it cost? How much will the additional estimate on construction costs be? What are the County, Regional and National planning and spatial objectives? Drawing a line on a map does not take any of those considerations into account.

In addition, experience teaches us that endless redesigning equals endless delays. Who benefits?

I told ya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120803253#Comment_120803253

If the project is not properly designed in the first place, then to correct it is not endless redesigning.

My point is, I can't see the value in following an 1860s alignment that ignores towns with increasing populations.

If you want a functioning PT system, it's going to cost.

Look at the rate the population is increasing by. C.80% since the census of 1961. Could possibly double in a lifetime. Unprecedented. Record numbers at work = records numbers commuting, even allowing for WFH.

ArcadiaJunction

I do not see any issue with the old alignment if park and rides and connecting buses serve the station. The main area of service is Navan.

spacetweek

“The old trackbed goes through Drumree beside Junction 6 of the M3. If that doesn't serve Dunshaughlin then the Motorway doesn't serve Dunshaughlin either.”

Nope, doesn’t work that way. People arriving by motorway have a car to get them the rest of the way to the town. People arriving by train don’t.

Ronald Binge Redux

"Nope, doesn’t work that way. People arriving by motorway have a car to get them the rest of the way to the town. People arriving by train don’t."

The old tune on a busted fiddle. There are plenty of stations not bang in the centre of towns all over Ireland but that's not the point in reality. It would be lovely if the powers that be could design something once, and stick to it, before various interests start spinning for redesign or compo or whatever. One would be forgiven for thinking that endless redesign is a deliberate ploy, a bit like RTÉ putting a sucky song up for Eurovision, so they don't have to host it the following year.

Pete_Cavan

Practically the entire 19th century route is going to have to be CPOed too!

Crossing the M3 at Black Bull, then along the eastern side of the M3 (deviating to serve Dunshaughlin) would actually impact on less houses and roads than the old alignment. That route has already been combed by archaeologists 15 years ago, the old alignment will likely require more archaeological assessments because it was never assessed before and 95% of it will have to be rebuilt from scratch so lots of earthworks.

Vicxas

https://www.thejournal.ie/rail-review-report-donegal-cavan-monaghan-6127273-Jul2023/ - Rail line to Cavan recommended, which means it would 100% go through Navan.