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What’s the obstacle against downing illegally flown drones?

[Deleted User]

In past and recent times Dublin Airport has been intruded by drones vexatiously flown, likely with intent to disrupt air traffic. Why all the hand-wringing by the authorities, including Eamon Ryan. “We can’t really bring them down”. I mean what precisely is stopping this happening considering the technology exists to track and disable them. If I were to breach the perimeter fence of Dublin Airport the authority would not be long in stopping me in my track. What’s the difference between me and a drone?

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Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120221727#Comment_120221727

It would not be hard to hit a drone. just because somebody couldn’t on YouTube struggled mean it is hard. I highly doubt they were a sniper.

People who shot regularly shoot shotgun take out targets that are considerable smaller and faster than Drones (clay targets, game birds). The limitations on shotguns is a short range. And even shorter lethal range on metal/polymer drone. A net from a shot shell is going to have terrible ballistics.

A rifle would have the range, but not a smart idea to fire rifles at a shallow angle into the sky.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120219661#Comment_120219661

Not altogether

If I order Melotonin (to help me sleep) from North America (can buy it in airport pharmacy in Canada) my shipment gets intercepted by customs. Of course the responsible supplier in Canada has labelled goods accordingly.

[Deleted User]

We must bear in mind that modern quadri prop “drone” technology is rapidly evolving to enlarge into personal transport. In benign weather and with all systems functioning this is relatively simple.

Decades ago I learned to fly a light aircraft. Apart from learning how to fly an airplane study involved meteorology, aerodynamics.

These non-qualified-pilot drones remind me of the history of driving. At first you just taught yourself or got helped to learn to operate an automobile. In my family history I learned how a family member caused a horrendous tragic accident in Donnybrook about 1911. I studied the investigation, court case, social outfall, at the time.

It’s becoming increasingly important to understand drone operations & aerodynamics under many conditions, and not just regard it as some fantastic science-fi form of transport. Gotta be all taken rather seriously.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120222122#Comment_120222122

They are shooting clays and birds at very short range and on a predictable path.

A drone will be far higher, and unpredictable as it moves erratically due to wind and constantly correcting itself. You'd have to blast all over the sky to hit it with no backstop the rounds would go every where. Are you going have all that coming down on delicate gear all over an airport and littering runways to burst tyres and who knows what.

Lots of videos of people trying it online. Even where they fly drones directly in front of group shooters it takes a lot of time a lot of rounds to hit them and luck to hit them.

It's not viable.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120222214#Comment_120222214

The difference is these days you have computers that can reduce the workload required to fly them.

Tenger

Hopefully a conviction to follow.

https://www.thejournal.ie/man-arrested-drone-incident-dublin-airport-5991762-Feb2023/

Ubbquittious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120221727#Comment_120221727

There's also ones who have had success. I'd say there is a certain knack to it.Like at the start when the Russkies started launching shahed drones they nearly all got through, now most get shot down.

Ubbquittious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120221257#Comment_120221257

Should have built his own drone with open source hardware/software. The amount of control DJI still exerts over their drones after you buy them is astounding. I would not be surprised if the Chinese were analysing the absolute feck out of the data they're getting off the DJI drones used in Ukraine and feeding it on to their military

Strumms

The laws on this appear vague and or inadequate.

the citizens information site I don’t see much…

but elsewhere, a drone site based in another jurisdiction say the law HERE is .. “ you must not fly a drone over private property unless authorised by the owner “

So what you can or can’t do as a home / property owner to protect your privacy / property ?

call the Gardai and inform them someone is flying a drone over your garden / property ? You’d likely be hours down their list of priorities.
establish contact with the operator. Let them know you value your privacy, property and personal safety and they are to desist flying the drone over / at your property. They’ll know this….What if they don’t comply ?
Establish that the drone is causing a tangible threat to the health and wellbeing of you and others and choose to disable it manually using say another object. But you are requiring the drone to be low enough to meet your 3 wood or baseball bat.

on further reading…

“The Criminal Law (Defence and the Dwelling) Bill 2011 allows a homeowner, tenant or visitor in a dwelling to defend themselves with reasonable force” … my interpretation of that is a drone being flown with disregard for the safety of those in situ at private property, the drone can be legally disabled.. it’s a threat…

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120222273#Comment_120222273

A drone is no less predictable than a wild bird. If anything it is not so are drones don't tend to spring from cover. Shotguns don't require a backstop. As I said, the issue in range. Shotgun simply don't have the range. Rifle has the range, but different issues as I said.

I didn't ay either was viable to protect an area the size of the airport. I'm saying it's not because it's hard to hit a hoverign static drone.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120222550#Comment_120222550

If you wanted to go that route, it becomes a self defence situation. I think that where you’d struggle.

It could fall out if the sky in to you head. But it would be much easier for you to go inside rather than take it down. It’s a hard case that you had no other choice.

It shouldn’t be there. Just like somebody shouldn’t trespass on your garden, but if they do it doesn’t give you carte blanche to beat the crap out of them.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120222530#Comment_120222530

Shahed drones are fixed wing and large 8ft wingspan. It's not a "knack" they started getting the radar controlled German Gepard system which can take out targets out to 4km and fires dual auto 35m cannons at 1100 rounds a minute.

https://youtube.com/shorts/-dE8AEbXQpk?feature=share

I dunno why they bothered they could have got some lads with shotguns instead.

https://youtu.be/p97RYfZqAXs

Scotty #

This notion of shooting down drones with shotguns or rifles or birds of prey is ridiculous. All you need is another drone. One with the adequate radar and speed to locate and immobilise the problem drone.

Scotty #

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120222550#Comment_120222550

The laws are in no way vague. They're set by EU Regulations and regulated here by the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA). If your drone has a camera you are required to register. This should be done at checkout in my opinion.

The full rules are available on the IAA website. Basically you are not allowed fly within 5km of any airport but if your drone is <1kg and you fly below 15 meters and are not flying "in a manner hazardous to people, aircraft, of buildings", then limitations don't apply.

There's an easy to read version of the rules on the use of Drones in Ireland available on Wikipedia here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_of_UAVs_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

EDIT: Actually, that wikipedia page could be out of date. Full regulations here: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32019R0947&from=EN

CreadanLady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120221243#Comment_120221243

That is grand for cheap ass drones piloted remotely, requiring a constant radio connection.

You can get drones that can be pre-programmed with a flight path and they will fly autonomously without external signals. Jamming won't do anything to those. There are microwave weapons though that can fry their electronics.

Look at what the ukrainians are doing with commercial quadcopter drones modified to drop RPG rounds. Each drone costs only a few thousand but they can do precision strikes and survey the damage instantly.

In the wrong hands cheapish commercial drones can be as lethal as artillery.

CreadanLady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120221727#Comment_120221727

It would only stand any chance if the drone was at a really low altitude.

Someone intent on maximum disruption could program their autonomous drone to fly around the field at 200m and it would be very well beyond the reach of such shot-net rounds..

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120222969#Comment_120222969

Exactly. They all come to the same conclusion its not viable. I think the experienced shooters are surprised at how hard they to hit reliably.

This why air to ground automatic systems basically fire thousand of rounds at something (radar directed). Which is only viable on a battlefield or at sea.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120222833#Comment_120222833

There's been a few attempts at that. I don't think anyone made a commercial success of one yet. I'm sure its coming.

CreadanLady

Those microwave directed energy things even, would be too dangerous to use in the proximity of an airport. They could fry the electronics of an aircraft too, or even damage electronics on the ground. A human operated unit would be too prone to accidental damage to things, so it would have to be a radar controlled weapon.

It is simply not feasible currently. It is not a commercially available technology yet.

Attacking with a drone is a better option. A sacrificial drone could track and collide with the offending drone at high speed, a sort of kinetic impactor drone. Again, it would have to be radar controlled as it would be impossible to hit a drone if piloted by a human.

But this would be ineffective in the event of a disruption involving several drones. The defending drones would be quickly consumed. Even 10 or 20 cheap expendable Aliexpress drones would easily overcome such a system in minutes.

Again, similar was done with with the attack on a port in Crimea where Ukraine sent a barrage of cheaply made expendable, drone boats against the port. There was so many that the port's defences which included anti ship missiles and radar guided gunnery, were simply overwhelmed. While many drones were knocked out, many more slipped through, sinking and damaging many Russian ships moored in the port.

I think drones are shaping up to be a major hazard as they are versatile, remote operated or even autonomous and expendable.

[Deleted User]

https://www.irishnews.com/news/republicofirelandnews/2023/02/10/news/man_due_in_court_over_drone_activity_at_dublin_airport-3050959/

Swords man has appeared in court in relation to hazardous flying of drone.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120223843#Comment_120223843

I think it showed up a lot of Russian military systems like the Russian warship Moskva are in a poor state with dated technology. China has a drone carrier and the US has been testing drone fleets and the defense of the same.

Certainly in a civilian scenario its much more difficult.

CreadanLady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120223993#Comment_120223993

Do you know the details of that attack? Just to clarify, what happened there was not drones on a boat, it was drone-boats. ie, cheaply made remotely operated boats with a very low profile in the water, barely above surface for concealment and minimising radar returns. Packed with explosives that detonate on contact with a ship. The probably have more in common with a torpedo than anything. But being remote operated/autonomous and being sent in as a swarm / wave attack to overwhelm defences is what they have in common with air-drones.

Markcheese

There doesn't seem to be a one size fits all solution ,

guns seem to be out .

Microwaves to fry them in the sky sounds unbelievablely risky when you consider that there are low flying aircraft about

Hawks and birds of prey ,possible but I assume risky for the birds , and you'd probably still have to shut down the airspace in case your hawk flew into a plane .

Small portable jammers look positive , again probably need the airspace closed to use , but seem relatively simple and could be just left in a jeep or car that patrols the perimeter ( obviously trained staff )

I'm sure someone will come up with an anti-drone grenade , that just drops a cloud of fibers for the drone to fly through , it's prob already out there - but again a risk - and you're not going to give a grenade launcher to just any DAA security officer .

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120224126#Comment_120224126

I know it was discussed at length on military and naval forums. I'm just saying Russia is a low bar when it comes to tech.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambling/2021/04/30/us-navy-destroys-target-with-drone-swarm---and-sends-a-message-to-china/?sh=30ce0d402df1

CreadanLady

that cloud of fibres idea is excellent. You could have it as deployed from a drone, where it tracks over or ahead of a drone and releases a cloud of long fibrous threads that will tangle up in the rotors.

Or you could have it in a cannister shot out of some sort of air cannon and the cannister bursts open in proximity to the drone. Not very hazardous and has a much bigger kill radius that any sort of firearm.

You could have some sort device on the launcher that tracks the drone and tells you the altitude and range, and then the launcher will set the time on the cannister so that it'll burst open near the drone.

NUTLEY BOY

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120214311#Comment_120214311

I assume that applies equally to take-offs and landings.

Flinty997

It's obviously spiderman and his fired webs reference.

There's been systems that fire nets at drones for a few years. Don't seem to caught on.

Flinty997

Delicate posters these days.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120224751#Comment_120224751

I assume take off is more critical. Plane is heavier, more fuel onboard and power is more critical in taking off than landing. Theres a point of no return in taking off, when you are too fast to stop and any problems require a circle back to the runway. At the same time a safe landing isn't something you can skip.

[Deleted User]

IMO the current drone issue is plainly a protest against movements of aircraft departing 28L by certain local residents. Standing in south Swords you can hear the blast of jet engine departing and certain people don’t like noise especially at certain hours.