Winter 21/22 Eviction Ban (was: And just like that, FFFG lose 298000 votes))

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120119030#Comment_120119030

Yeah that’s a pretty shite situation, I’d never let to friends/family, although haven’t been in the situation and I’d imagine it’d be hard to turn it down if put on the spot, never leads anywhere good, I have had people contact me about using our holiday home for the winter, promising it’s only for the winter, not a chance would I let them near it we’d never get it back, have to be on your toes in this market

SwimClub

If you rent out a place in this country at the moment you are essentially inviting a homeless person into your property and taking on responsibility for housing them going forward.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120119183#Comment_120119183

Yep,if you have good tenants hang onto them, but you have to be very careful about who you rent to now, simply because eviction ban combined with the lease meaning nothing unless you change tenants every year means it’s a very precarious thing to do at the moment.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120119338#Comment_120119338

You have to change them every six months

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120123083#Comment_120123083

That’s undoable may as well Airbnb 🤔

https://m.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/how-much-is-your-house-worth/rental-crisis-gets-worse-as-exodus-of-landlords-spreads-to-smaller-towns-42304054.html

Looks like the law of unintended consequence is coming to the fire again. Like the few small LL here have pointed out the exodus continues. I pointed out earlier this year about a conversation with a census enumerator and the amount of empty houses. This is in today's paper

The real problem is nobody will replace these houses in small towns or village. Government in its regulations has regulated the small LL out of business.

When you look at it they have imposed the same regulation costs on LL in these area where the rental return is often only 50% if larger urban Ireland

Yes the exodus has cooled the house market for the moment. But the supply will dry up and houses will take off again

ingo1984

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120137466#Comment_120137466

It's continued articles like this, homeless figures increasing, asylum seekers sleeping in tents etc, the whole narrative points to the eviction ban being extended. Regardless whether it's right from a legal stand point. The government and politicians don't care about that. Far more votes in people renting than there is in private landlords and that's the bottom line.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120137652#Comment_120137652

I'm not sure there's that many votes in people renting either.

Phucking over the landlords will phuck over the tenants in the long run.

Homeowners are the registered voters are who have real skin in the game in local areas and are not afraid to be awkward with local councillors/TDs etc over a very long period.

A good chunk of renters may not even know their local TDs or be registered to vote in the area.

redarmyblues

Absorber thing is that the LL exodus is suppressing prices and making new builds untenable.

herbalplants

https://www.irishtimes.com/property/2023/01/21/landlords-have-their-say-investors-are-not-in-the-game-at-the-moment/

More and more articles stating the obvious why landlords are selling. How did they expect landlords to be treated so badly and continue providing a service?

How did we not have so many problems in the rental sector 15-20 -years ago!

redarmyblues

Threshold, Focus, O Broinn have zero skin in the private rental market, the salaried employees of the housing charities who get the majority of their funding from state are like O Broinn own their own places, their business is constant agitation and they couldn't really care less about renters except for the right on glow they get from banning bedsits etc.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120137652#Comment_120137652

The problem for government is that as a tenancy ends a substantial number of LL make a decision not to relet. The other issue is many house that would normally be available for rental are staying away from the market.

There is a simple law of physics Newton 3rd law:

'' for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction''

Regulation has backfired.

It is not just tenancies ending it's also houses that might come into the system temporary are now completely discouraged.

When you look back at the bedsit debacle 2010-12 which took out a substantial amount of cheap accommodation you would think politicians would learn. If you over regulate you need to make sure there is tax incentives in place to keep stock in place.

Over regulations is grand for those in accommodation it's a disaster for those looking to rent. If you regulate you need to balance rights.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120139060#Comment_120139060

Because cash kept accomdation prices down. When ever you integrate any area of business fully into the tax system it increases costs. While not advocating tax evasion you have to understand if a LL is paying substantial tax then it effects what he needs to charge to make the numbers work out. The net effect is if the numbers do not make sense the investor leaves.

What is worse is that k rental income is classed as unearned income. Along with that normal write downs applicable to other businesses are not allowed in the rental sector. Even a few years ago LL's were only allowed to offset I think it was 80% of mortgage interest allowable against tax. Just think about that a fully justified expense not allowable. Property tax is still not a tax deduction.

Another factor is that those renting no longer share rooms. This increases costs as well. I rented for about ten years in the 70/80's, in that time I shared a room for 7 years at a guess. The only rooms that had single occupancy was the box bedroom or the jacks if you were going for a sh!t.

Rustyman101

When you join the dots here and see where this is heading (has been well flagged) if it wasn't so tragic it would be funny, small landlords gone the way of the dodo, what were they 70-80% of market.

Nobody their right mind will replace these units.

Ignoring the other unmentionable elephant in the room.

Well congratulations the rental market is now gone for the foreseeable.

Take a bow NGOs and all our good friends on the left.

What a mess, all the strawman populist shite has really come home to roost.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120137652#Comment_120137652

Weirdly people who rent don’t vote as much, because they tend to be transient and don’t stay in the same area, at least that used to be the case I’d like to see stats, to see if it’s changed now that people stay in the same place longer and the fact you can register online.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120139060#Comment_120139060

Honestly there’s a few things on this, and a lot of them are to do with tax, I know people who work in the bank in the country, and the feedback they’re getting is that landlords are selling up and a lot of it is to do with the tenant tax relief, simple reason a lot of them aren’t paying any tax on their properties and never have, so this looks to them like they have to get out because it’s too late to start paying tax, if they sell up they’re out and away, if revenue twig they weren’t paying tax for over 20 years they’re really in the mire, so literally no choice but to sell.

In the past the government tended to turn a blind eye towards landlords not paying tax, but now there’s a feeling that the government are out to get them (and let’s not even start on the possibility of a Sinn Fein government) and they could lose everything so all those small guys with 2 or3 bed houses in towns and villages are selling up.

I remember the previous tax rental relief that tenants could claim I was renting at the time and never claimed it in case the landlord wasn’t paying tax and I got kicked out, this was when a landlord could kick you out no problem, friends were the same.

The above is anecdotal but it is the reality, if the government was going to cut tax I reckon they’d have to declare an amnesty as well otherwise all those guys are going to continue to sell up, and I know that’ll stick in the craw of people who want to punish landlords.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120141179#Comment_120141179

Or actually investigate the tax evaders and hit them with demands for payment + normal penalties. Use the money to build State housing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120141179#Comment_120141179

Landlords have been exitiing with the last five years what was a trickle has turned into a flood. The rent relief was only bought in this autumn in the budget. The terminations notices were being served before that. I was looking at a staistic for the RTB 50% of terminations notices were invalid last year. This gives you an idea of how technical the paperwork on a rental has become with the RTB. Notices for rent increases and for terminations need a professionl to do them. Everything with regulations has added costs. doing quick figures on a rental 2-3months rent are now going on costs. The vast majority of LL are within the tax system at present. My children have been renting at different stages over the last 5 years none were paying but through direct debit. Similare here myself all rental money goes straigh into the bank. Most tenants need a record of rent paid if they ever wish to get a mortgage. Your friends in the bank are waffling

SwimClub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120142506#Comment_120142506

Yeah I can't imagine tax avoidance is a big thing, with all tenancies having to be registered any sort of a fall out with a tenant then tax avoiding landlords would have been in trouble in any case, it isn't a new issue with the tax credits IMO. The last thing one of these landlords would want now is to issue a termination notice and it riggers checks on everything and anything on request by the tenant who doesn't want to leave.

The way the system works, I don't think the government are under huge pressure with lifting the eviction ban because tenants will just overhold if they have nowhere to go and the system takes years to make them move out.

The system is like this by design, and the regulations are deliberately complicated to draw out the amount of time that rental units are held in the system. They are putting requirements in to deliberately trip owners up to invalidate their notices and drag it all out.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120142506#Comment_120142506

Talking specifically about the countryside and small towns/villages as were mentioned in the article, not cities but happy to be corrected and I am using second hand information that was relayed to me, I’m from a city but live in the country, in a lot of ways I think it’s a bit like the 80s, everyone has a trade or are in farming, not exactly an IT hotspot, although that’s changing, but there certainly are a lot of cash in hand jobs going on across the board and guys claiming the dole but heading out to do a few days work on the side.

If you go to SuperValu, which appears to be the shop of choice, there are a lot of cash transactions, cards are rarely used, because that’s pretty much all you can do with the cash, you can’t put it in your account, I mentioned it to my father in law, who’s from the area and pretty much knows everyone and said it’s all the cash in hand.

All the above is anecdotal and have no doubt people will shout me down, but that’s just my observations and what people have relayed back to me, also a few stories of guys getting ‘caught’.

so look take it with a pinch of salt could be completely wrong, ha small towns feck all else to do except talk about everyone else’s business.

redarmyblues

But maximising the time a rental stays in the system has the effect of minimising the sum of rental units as it incentivises existing LLs to exit the market and certainly will not incentivise new entrants. Did I read somewhere that there scheme to encourage the letting of the houses of residents of care homes had 4 applications which is 4 more than I expected.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120142728#Comment_120142728

I live in the country. Most older people collect there pensions etc in cash.

There is some who make an assumption that if people pay for anything in cash then there is a tax dodge somewhere. A lot of people take out money out of the bank or post office in cash. I do it I always pay for my day to day spending in cash.

SwimClub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120142822#Comment_120142822

They don't care about any of that, they care about the next election and keeping their job, it's short term decisions in their own interests.

They can and will make short term populist decisions that damage the long term rental market and the property market if they think they can get more vote out of that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120142506#Comment_120142506

The mistake you are making there is not understanding that there are many PAYE workers who think Revenue Audits do not apply to them.

They aren't filing returns anyway. They don't have massive bank transactions that would be flagged. They aren't visibly living beyond their means. They don't have massive sums in the bank because as the money comes in, it goes against their mortgage.

I'm not saying they can't be caught. I'm saying that they don't realise that they might be. Or else they started down that route years ago and then felt at some stage either that "sure I'm getting away with it" or "sure I can't start paying it now or they'll find out that I wasn't paying it for the last X years"

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120143352#Comment_120143352

But that is not the assumption. The assumption being peddled by @The Spider is that it's people evading tax that are selling because of the nee rent tax relief. However LL are fleeing the market for the last 5 years and what was a trickle is now a Tsunami. What was only effecting mainly urban area is not effecting rural towns and villages as LL issue termination notices.

So what has been the biggest change in the last 5 years. It's the constant change in regulation. I expect that the majority of LL are tax compliant to an extent, making a tax return. There is no cash in the system. For LL the risk of not registering leaves you carrying a lot of risk.

In smaller towns and villages you have a much higher percentage of HAP tenancies as most jobs in these areas are often minimum wage. As houses are cheaper it more likely those with an anyway decent income will have got a mortgage and purchased a house if they are available.

The thing that has changed in the last five years is the constant changing of regulations. Actually I suspect that a lot of houses that are exiting the market ate where tenant's leave a house and LL decides not to relet. They may not necessarily be selling the property

There is a substantial number of vacant properties locally that traditionally would have been rented but now owners are letting them vacant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120144354#Comment_120144354

A claim here from 2021 that up to 60% of rental properties in one area of Cork were not registered. Make of that what you will.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40300235.html

If you were a non-compliant landlord who forgot to declare your income for taxation purposes, well you probably would be inclined to rush for the door now - no? Even a few hundred such people would be a non-trivial percentage of the people currently selling.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120144381#Comment_120144381

If you read the article it seemed to indicate that the non registerations were in the student rental area. Non registeration is not a indication that the owners are not tax compliant. Again the vast amjority of students are paying by either credit transfer or Direct Debit. what is happening in student tenacy area is not an indication of what is happening in the wider rental sector.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120144398#Comment_120144398

It was a response to your assertion that:

To show that there seems to be at least a sizeable few that don't register. Does that mean relate directly to tax compliance? No. But if are person is likely to take a chance on the rules in one area, then that might indicate they would be likely to take a chance in another area. It at least is evidence that some people don't obey the rules.

Direct debit etc. is not necessarily in the thinking for some people as explained in an earlier post. They could be caught, but what percentage of pure PAYE earners (on paper) are selected for random audits? I'd say very few.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120144425#Comment_120144425

The article mentions that the vast majority of LL were registered. This was a survey done on student accomodation. As leases were traditionally 9 months and students left after that there may have been a tendency to skip registeration. However all indications are its no common accross general lettings. owners of student accomodation are more likly to have multiple units, ( less like that units were inherited or orginally bought as a residential unit) so they are much more likely to be registered for tax. Many will be registered with student bodies or were traditionally on college accomdation lists. Revenue would check these lists and follow up on checks. Of all places you would have be slow to not declare for tax is accomodation used by students

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120144448#Comment_120144448

That's an awful lot of assumptions pulled out of nowhere. If you go to the front page of this forum you will probably find a few threads about people buying accommodation for their student children. Most people would know that accommodation near universities will always be easier to find tenants too.

Regardless, it is most definitely not the case that there are no landlords who don't declare their rental income. Which appears to be what you are trying to "prove" for some reason.