Following on from here
New Munster chat thread folks. warning deserved there. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=109477571#post109477571
We have different definitions of sensible then on the first post.
The IRFU, much to the chagrin of Leinster management and fans, encouraged / facilitated a transfer of Joey Carbery to Munster to help solve two issues: (i) give a guy who looked like he might be the heir apparent for Ireland at the most important position the opportunity to really challenge Sexton and lead a team, (ii) help Munster out by transferring a guy who was a prize asset in Irish rugby at that time.
That said, I absolutely refuse to believe that beyond that there is any involvement from the IRFU/Nucifora in mandating Joey Carbery's selection. No self respecting coach would tolerate it, and it would absolutely have leaked if this were the case.
Furthermore, there would be absolutely zero logic behind it. Why would the IRFU, who's primary mandate is the success of Irish rugby, not want Munster and Ireland to develop and select the best possible player available?
The coaches who have consistently picked Carbery as first choice for Munster and second choice for Ireland have done so because they believe he is the best player available to them at that time. Any other kind of tinfoil hat theory suggesting otherwise doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
these are two of the most sensible posts ive seen in a while
I always thought if you're playing a 6-2 split, you'd need an out and out 10, and 9 on the bench, but those players can cover the back 5 between them, or the players on the field can be reorganised to cover centres and wingers/fullback
9 and 10 are pivotal positions, It's possible that your halfbacks could get injured or carded in the first few minutes of a game, and then you're stuck with a stand-in for the rest of the game.
This is why I think a lot of promising 10s get played in 12 and 15 while they're gaining match day experience. Not because the coach wants them to play in those places long term, but because they want them to be able to be brought on as cover for 12/15 if they're on the bench in a 6-2 scenario
The starting centres should be your best 12 and 13, but if the 13 goes off, it's easier for a specialist 12 to move to 13 and bring in cover at 12
Similarly, start your specialist full back at 15 and if he gets injured, you can bring on the 10 to cover 15 in a 6-2
The cover for 9 could cover the wings or FB (probably don't want them in the centre or they'd just be a speedbump)
When a player was the 'Next big thing' and the IRFU invest a lot of political capital to move him to Munster as the annointed replacement for Johnny Sexton, then they pick up a long term injury (while playing for Ireland). There is a huge reluctance to change the depth chart until that player comes back, especially if its in a period where almost all of the minutes were being given to Johnny Sexton and everyone else is fighting for scraps off the bench or against weaker teams in heavily rotated sides.
i should have said for munster in my original post, although i agree he was pretty good against edinburgh this season. my problem is that even allowing for his fitness issues, for me he hasnt shown a consistent high level of performance for munster to warrant building the backline around him. hes had some decent one-off performances but all of the other options have had similar if not better games so i dont think he should be an automatic starter
So can you just confirm here please, that you are saying that for some reason, the Munster and Ireland coaches are being instructed to select Joey Carbery?
I do think you have a bit of a point tho; the one that sticks out to me was the SF in the RDS in his first season where he was parachuted back in. In hindsight, that looked like a poor decision. But he had gone well earlier that season, so they obviously thought it was worth the risk.
carbery hasnt really shown anything since his first season imo and yet hes a guaranteed starter still?
I think the 4 games he put together after the Autumn Internationals were the best spell he's had in years, and certainly the best he's been since that period around Christmas in his first season at Munster (that included the Glouster game).
The Edinburgh away game in particular, he showed great character after an early mistake, and I think the last 60 mins of that game are as good as we've been in attack in years. Carbery was instrumental in that. (I think we scored 31 unanswered points).
During that 4-game period, he seemed to me to be taking to flatter and releasing it later than he previously had.
Bear in mind, I was someone who was very critical of him, and wanted Crowley to start ahead of him earlier in the season, particularly after the first Connacht game.
rob kearney has said they wanted carbery to take over from him at 15 but schmidt preferred RK. yes he played 10 a bit but he mainly played 15 even when sexton was injured because although carbery is a better player overall, byrne was/is a much better 10 than he is
IRFU absolutely aren't dictating Munster selection.
Why would they? It would be absolutely counter productive for both Munster and Ireland.
No. This is pure mental gymnastics.
why were lancaster and cullen (correctly) convinced that he was a 15 so if thats the case?
They weren't, and he played a lot of games at 10 for Leinster that season. They just rated him that highly that they wanted to get him on the field as often as they could, so put him at 15 sometimes.
Another factor was probably because they had a pretty decent guy at 10 you might have heard of called Jonathan Sexton?
why would you pick on projected form continually though? surely there has to be a point where you decide enough is enough and move on though? carbery hasnt really shown anything since his first season imo and yet hes a guaranteed starter still?
by bringing JC straight back into the starting team everytime he is fit they are making that claim when he simply isnt that talented of a 10 for that to happen.
and that is rubbish that JJ or Healy were never good enough. at many times over the last few seasons both have being playing infinitely better than carbery
nobody is saying there is some grand conspiracy (or at least im not), what im saying is that farrell/irfu see carbery as the next best option at 10 and are dictating that he is the starting 10 for munster when available and i , among others, disagree with this as he hasnt shown enough at 10 to warrant this.
the irish coach dictating to provincial coaches isnt unheard of, kearney was picked for leinster ahead of JC down to schmidts intervention and carbery was likewise on the bench ahead of ross byrne
Yea, agreed. It’s not a conspiracy. He has the incumbent advantage. You have to be clearly better to take his spot. But that’s how it works everywhere.
I'm not disputing he's been disappointing, compared to the potential he flashed when he first emerged at Leinster.
What I was disputing is that there is some conspiracy at play as to why he keeps getting starts. It's because as disappointing as he's been, the people who know the players best, and who have the most to lose by getting the decision wrong, still think he's the best option.
To choose a middle ground, they don’t think he is inferior. They think that when he has sustained periods of health he is the second best outhalf in ireland.
To the average fan though, they see a guy who is average most of the time and gets injured the moment he finds form. I can understand the frustration. Basically, he has provided very little real value to munster over his time there. You pick based on projected value though, so he deserves to get picked.
Wilson is such a pain, Max and Marc are easy to listen to.
carbery is being made out to be a generational 10 like ROG/sexton
What?? By who? Show me one poster, journalist or anyone who's made any such claim.
There is no logical reason why the Munster coaches would have stuck with Carbery after his injury lay-off if he wasn't the best option. The 'sunk cost' theory ceased to be any way plausible then (even though it never was in the first place).
He is first choice, and always has been, because neither JJH nor Healy were good enough. The fact that they're local lads and Carbery is a blow-in doesn't change that.
Absolutely bizarre that after ten years, people are still talking about JJ Hanrahan.
no ill stick with tom croft tbh, an incredibly overrated player imo
youve obviously made your mind up, so no real point arguing a subjective opinion, but youll find very, very few people who will agree with you that Tom Croft was an overrated player who didnt deserve to be a B+I lion.
He just has 4 premiership titles to his name, made the short list for World Player of the year in 2009, and has the honour of being the only B+I forward in the professional era to score two tries in a test game.
but yeah.. overrated....
So, just to be clear, you're claiming here that the Munster and Irish coaches, who, incidentally, have far greater access to the players, get all their data, watch them train, know them personally etc, and generally are best placed to judge the players, are deliberately selecting a guy who they think is inferior because of some nefarious conspiracy?
Why?
Why would that possibly be the case? Who's the great schemer behind this, Nucifora? Why would he give a f if Munster and Ireland's second out half is any of Carbery, Crowley or Healy?
Why would coaches, who's own performance, contracts etc are so closely linked to the performance of their out half, not select the guy who they think gives them the best chance to win?
This conspiracy stuff just keeps coming back up every couple of weeks.
its very hard (nigh on impossible) to stake a realistic claim when carbery gets parachuted straight back into the starting team as soon as he is available. both JJ and healy had shown enough at various stages to warrant keeping the starting jersey and yet carbery would walk straight back into the team - JJ was player of the game against castres at home a few years ago and then gets benched the next week when carbery hasnt played for ages, that doesnt really strike me as picking on merit? .as i've said before, carbery is being made out to be a generational 10 like ROG/sexton when he is simply not, whether this is down to munster coaches or the irfu is unclear (id imagine a combination of both)
as ive also said before, id love for carbery to prove me wrong, but i dont see it happening unfortunately
I think there's a possibilty that Scotland are going to play a 6-2 bench in the World Cup, and they want Kinghorn to be able to cover out-half.
That's just my sneaky suspicion.
There's some absolute bullish desire to make Kinghorn their 10 no matter how awful he is. The edinburgh fans have run out of patience with him finally but he's still a darling of the SRU. Hopefully Healy doesn't fall foul of that like others have.
As an aside thanks to all for answering the Okeke query. Had no idea of any of those shenanigans. Missed it all entirely first time around too.
Sounds excellent, always came across as a very likeable guy.
Always interesting to me too to get the perspectives of the guys who come in from outside to become central players in Irish rugby, and how they contrast and compare Irish rugby to what they've come from.
Hopefully he'll be ready for action soon
Today we're delighted to be joined by Irish legend CJ Stander as he takes us through the incredible highs and terrifying lows of his career which took him from Captaining South Africa U20's to becoming a legend in Ireland and Munster. After getting the lads thoughts on the controversial news surrounding Eddie Jones and Dave Rennie and having heard their theories around the England Six Nations squad coming and goings, we're treated to some of the greatest stories you'll ever hear as CJ relives his greatest moments.
From coming out of retirement to play in a charity match and nearly killing one of the opposition, to revealing for the first time why he really retired so young, to reliving the moment he decided he turn his back on South Africa, plus the terrifying moment he nearly killed himself when his BBQ exploded, his thoughts on Leinster, his terrifying school initiation, his stand our Lions memories and two hilarious stories from his early days attempting to settle in at Munster plus much much more.... we've got it all, so sit back and enjoy.
Tom croft was a fantastic player who's career was cut short by injury.
There are many many other more applicable players you could have picked to make that point
Crowley looks the part tbf but hard fathom all the people suggesting he is/will be an understudy to sexton now and future Munster 10…..most of his top level rugby is at 12 ….was ok v Australia last autumn but only ok looking any game time he has got at 10 for Munster
Fully agree there sexton is so far out in front of any other Irish 10 it’s worrying considering his age …there’s a gap to joey then there a gap back to the rest …Ross Byrne proably leading candidate ….Crowley despite all the talk of him been a 10 has played more top level rugby as a 12 and as mentioned earlier at 15 at ail….
So much invested in Carbery by moving him to Munster to be 10, that it creates a reluctance amongst all coaches in Munster and Ireland to allow him to be usurped.
This argument is massively flawed because it overlooks the 18 months that Carbery missed after the World Cup.
In that time, any of the other guys could have staked a claim but they didn't. Not even close.
Carbery isn't the top class OH we hoped he would be but he's absolutely the best OH that Munster have, and it's up to Crowley now to displace him. JJ and Healy are absolutely light years off the pace.
This is exactly my opinion too fwiw.
(and as hinted at earlier, everybody's hand in the Irfu was forced due to certain legal proceedings in the North at the time. Had it not been for that, Carbery would never have found himself as Sexton's understudy. Might still have been moved to Munster tho)
It's just the nature of the professional game. Any player is an asset, an investment. As their coach or mentor you want to see them reach their peak and stay there for as long as possible.
Injuries will halt the return on that investment. But if the investment has been substantial, high profile and prolonged, the powers that be are more likely to double down on it.
That's what's happened with Joey.
Crowley will be the next Munster long-term out half imo. (lack of injury permitting)
We'll all need to be a little bit patient though, and wait for the Carbery shareholders to finally pull out.
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