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Slow play at your home club

Beaulieu

Curious as to how your club deals with it.

Our club sent out a pretty straightforward email to all members advising on etiquette re slow play recently.

Result?

It's got worse! Now there are a million reason to explain it - winter golf so a shorter course and thus increased waiting time / balls lost amongst leaves etc etc

Has anyone had any success in their club?

Ours cant afford to pay a starter or a ranger btw.

Would love to hear how your club deals with this.

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blue note

I'm glad to see the course set up and design mentioned on this thread as opposed to just golfer behaviour. When I was growing up, courses were shorter. People didn't hit the ball as far, so when you go offline now you're more likely to reach the trouble. You used to be able to run the ball onto greens more easily - now there are far more elevated greens. And when you hit the ball through a green, now you have more run offs designed to penalise those shots. And often then the green will slope away from you chipping back onto the green for a bit of additional punishment. And there are more bunkers and they're bigger. And there's more water.

They're obviously generalisations, but they are true for the average course now compared to in the 90s or even 00s. And they're huge contributors to rounds taking a lot longer now than they used to. And they are what is wanted by golfers now, but the trade off is additional time needed for the rounds.

Another thing that irks me is that people don't understand things that can cause slow play. Corballis being a great example - you'll often see here people say that a fourball should take no more than 3 hours 30 - largely I assume because it's short. But when you actually look at what happens - people are looking for balls all the time and hacking out of rough and playing provisionals, etc. On the front 9;

1st hole - straightforward and rarely causes a hold up.

2nd hole - lots of guys can't carry it onto the hill and keep it there so end up looking for their ball in the rough or down the ravine. That'll have knock on effects for the rest of the hole.

3rd hole - I'd say on average at least one person per group ends up looking for a drive. And plenty of people end up looking for a ball short left of the green, or in the rough either side of it.

4th hole - a flick of a wedge, but if you pull it or go long you can easily spend time looking for a ball.

5th hole - rough on the left or right is potentially a lost ball. Long on your approach can be a lost ball. And if you're hitting your approach from the right of the fairway you'll be hitting blind into the wind - you might not even know where to look.

6th hole - not the worst for losing a ball, but the bunkers can be a nightmare.

7th hole - some lads can barely carry the rough to reach the fairway from the comp tees. And you're landing it blind. And if your approach misses the green you'll be looking for a ball.

8th hole - you really shouldn't be taking too long here!

9th hole - you're hitting over a lake you can play out of in dry weather. More looking for balls!

Add to all of that the fact that there are millions of beginners in the club. It really annoys me when people moan to me about how slow the rounds there are. It's just a lack of understanding on why rounds take time.

Frisbee

There's a team competition on a Wednesday in my club. 14 holes and Starts at 12. If I can't get out in say the first 4 or 5 groups I don't bother playing as you would be looking at 4 hours minimum for 14 holes then. Purely because of a few groups who always play together who hold everything up. You'd regularly see a big traffic jam between two holes as it's a long Par 5 followed by a long Par 3 so you've auld lads waiting for the green to clear on the Par 5 when they haven't a snowballs chance in hell in getting on. Then waiting for the Par 3 green to clear even though they can't reach it with driver.

I played with one of them in a standard competition a few weeks ago and it was excrutiating, I'd been warned to avoid his name on the tee sheet but it was the only time I could get out. He could barely hit his driver 150 yards. No issues there, people lose distance with age. But then he's standing 220 yards out with his hybrid waiting on the green to clear when you know he's going to take at least 3 shots from here to even reach the green. Same with driving, there's a few Par 4s on my home course I can reach off the tee with the right wind. So I would always try tee off last to give the group ahead time to clear and you'd have to say to him every time for him to go ahead and tee off but "he likes to tee off last".

Mentioned it to a few other lads I had played with after the round and they just laughed. He has been warned repeatedly but doesn't give a bollocks. So if the club aren't going to take any action he's clear to just keep doing what he's doing. We are off forward tees at the moment and he was moaning non-stop about not being off the whites. Just pure delusion.

tayto lover

Golf was never meant to be a race but there are some very slow players whether through age, being unfit or taking far too many practice swings (one should be enough) the game has got very slow. Many lads play fourballs during club competitions too for a few quid.

I never expect to be finished a fourball within 4.15 hours. I wouldn't even play if I had to be finished early because it won't happen.

ShivasIrons

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120118553#Comment_120118553

How can having 11 minute intervals lead to a drop of 15% in revenue? Faster rounds means groups can start later in the day and finish at the same time.

FixdePitchmark

I've a slow play problem - and I'm beginning to think it is just me. The majority of golfers I play with, are not as bothered about slow golf. Then covid came along - golf clubs filled , more people on the time sheet , lots of people taking up golf and returning. A issue with covid too is - during it and after it. There was and is a different pace of life. There is a valid argument that the attitude that this has created, is right. They all seem happy with the new pace of life - whilst slow play was a problem before, it is worse now. But - as I've seen , most people don't care and aren't in a rush. Lots more full time sheets , mixed ability - and a far reduced golf season - golf is booming. Some might go - who cares about slow play. Where are you in a rush to ? - I'm working from home - and I'm out for the day.

Reading people leaving golf and not playing is not surprising. Nearly 4hrs 30 to 5 hours out on a course is pure madness to me - I want to be well in, in under 4. But this is unrealistic in golf now - so you have to go with the system or find a different way to play (or even change sport). I've managed this somewhat by playing far more casual golf than I should. I've also improved my expectations a bit - and realized not many want to get around as fast as I do. You can find a few like minded people and meet up, off the peak periods on the course . (But the peak period is getting much wider in time frame)

I've consider a few thing - rather than the obvious. I love golf - but conventional 4 ball - 18 holes golf, just doesn't work for me. Again - I've the problem.

If I had my way (and I know I never will change anything) - as many below are very unrealistic.

1) I'd get rid of all 4 balls. It just doesn't work - It is fairly often, I see these losing a hole by the 3rd or 4th hole. Many 4 balls do work - but it just takes a few for it all to fall apart - a slow player is even slower in a 4 ball.

2) We need to play far more forward than we do more often - so many golfers are just not up to the longer courses

3) We need to reduce the focus on 18 holes (a thing i never expected to say) - 9 and 12 holes - we need a slope and HI for 12 holes.

4) Increase time between groups - but with the boom in golf this does not seem realistic

5) There is no place in golf for people who do not play ready golf - but what can you do here ?

6) People are walking too slow - and walking together down the middle of the fairway to talk about Spurs versus Arsenal - I accept that golf is social and fun - but when people are out in 4 balls and the course is full - everyone needs to keep moving and focus on the next shot

7) In Ireland we are absessed with handicap and medals - we need to have a serious look at ourselves here. I don't want us to become American - but this is a big problem for slow play - and it is all too serious.

8) We need to let people know they are slow - a clock at say 6 and 12. We have so much technology now - we need an on course system , because the simple act of the group knowing they are slow makes them move faster. the group ahead are "x mins ahead" on a display would be great.

9) Amateurs have developed pro routines - not sure where you can go with this - but it is just so hard to play at this pace. It probably isn't the biggest problem - but it is the most frustrating to be part of in amateur golf.

10) The whole routine around the green is just not working (for me) - 4 balls , 4 reads each putt, 8 reads at least, reading putts from all angles, the marking , the flag in the flag out - moving poker chips (we should get rid of them) , marking 10 inch putts - flag in , flag out. At times literally everyone standing and looking at each other - who is up - sorry it is me - read a putt - move marker - your on my line - put poker chip back - read from behind - flag in or out - exasperations - hands on hips - look into sky . Am I up - can I finish out - you want the flag in. Sorry am I on your line for this 6 inch putt. Sorry move that poker chip - put it back. Sorry can I read this again from the side - line up the ball on the line - miss a 4 putt.

Anyway - I have a slow play problem and it is me - I love golf , but not the golf that is being played out there at certain times and places.

Also - I would ban practice swings - but I won't over reach 😂

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120118553#Comment_120118553

I think your last line is the heart of the issue really. eg 3hrs 45mins can be pedestrian in one player's eyes and can equally be running around in another player's opinion.

I honestly think though that a lot of "slowness" (for want of a better phrase !) can easily be solved without any more rules or outlandish ideas. Ready golf is well and good, but you don't even necessarily need that - its simple things like being ready to hit when its your turn, leaving your bag on the correct side of the green, filling out your score card on the next tee not on the green you've just played etc etc.

There's always going to be holes where two people have to look for a ball or someone just has a nightmare, but if you do the simple stuff, you buy time for these and most people don't mind if a group ahead of them has a slow hole if they're ok for the rest of the round imo.

That said, I'm sure we'll still be debating this in 20 years time !

Ohh and ban Aimpoint and 18 handicappers asking if they're 164 or 167 to the pin 😁😁

token56

I think it's a tricky one. I would consider myself a fast enough player and definitely get a bit put off if having to wait on groups ahead. I have definitely seen many players who simply take the piss on their rounds but then I also know others who are just genuinely slow. This weekend I was playing with an older gentlemen, really lovely guy but was very slow taking his shots. He had developed some awful habits which had just created this dreadfully slow process but it worked for him and it's how he plays golf. Playing with him I didn't mind it as much as you get used to the flow but I can imagine groups playing behind us may be getting quite frustrated. On this day we were actually being held up by groups in front of us so were not to blame. However as lovely as the guy was I would be reluctant to go out on too many rounds with him and would definitely look to not be behind him on the time sheet. But he is entitled to play golf the way he plays it.

I would also say that worse than slow play is people who take it upon themselves to encourage groups in front to play quicker by driving balls up behind them. I've had more than one run in with someone doing this to me where we were keeping pace with the group in front of us but of course they didn't see this and didn't care. It's unacceptable behaviour to me and I challenged them on it but of course they denied it and didn't think they did anything wrong.

dan_ep82

Not a huge issue in our course. Usually it’s a combination of not being ready to hit and my pet peeve teeing off early or late.

Championship course is longer and has a lot of water so longer rounds are expected there.

Golfgraffix

I have been on a few panels over the years discussing pace of play and was part of two on course trials.

11 minutes is the ideal pace of play for a four ball and 10 minutes for 2 and three balls. Oddly there was very little improvement from 8 minutes, in fact 8 minutes caused slower play over the first 6 holes.

The problem with 11 minute intervals is a drop of approximately 15% in revenue for courses that have visitors, same % drop in competition fees on competition days.

We found the biggest causes were course set up and players not actually teeing off on time.

Course set up does not always mean making it easier. I remember an exercise in Castleknock GC back in 2013 where you could shave 6 minutes off a round by making the 1st hole harder.

Another exercise at another club highlighted that over 60% of groups did not tee off at their allotted slot. Not such a problem if it was universal, but when you have a group teeing off 3 minutes late followed by a group going 1 minute early it can back up very quickly.

Lastly I’d say a huge problem is the perception of what is slow play. Any club looking to address this IMO needs to start with a very clear definition of what slow play is.

ShivasIrons

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120117286#Comment_120117286

4 balls need to be at least 12 minutes apart. The ideal starting time is the length of time it takes to be putting out on a par 4. This is about 8 minutes for a 2 ball, add an extra player, 4 shots on the hole 30 seconds to play each shot, that's an extra 2 minutes to play the hole per player, so each extra person in a group adds 2 minutes to the gap in the starting time.

To get the most of golfers around at the moment with a free flowing game the best option is to have two shotgun starts a day with one group on each hole, or add in an extra couple of groups on par 5s. This gives 80 golfers in 20 4s, one shotgun at 8:30 and the second at 12:45. 160 golfers with a free hole in front of them all the time (this format also reveals slower groups very quickly). Using a one tee start starting at 8:30 you can get 20 golfers out comfortably each hour and with darkness at 5 the last time becomes 1. 4:30 hours of tee times or 90 golfers.

The shotgun solution for free flowing golf could be looked at but only with one group per par 3 and 4.

tritriagain

I gave up my membership last year as did the rest of my regular 4 ball. Two main reasons. Slow play and high handicap bandits. a combination of both and I'd end up swinging at more than the ball

Bloc

I think a lot of the time groups don't pay attention to their starting time, whether they're going early or late it throws the whole thing out. Lads going early creates a gap which makes groups behind think a group is playing slow when they're actually right on time. It usually all evens out, even the slow player that everyone in our club tries to avoid is only about 5 minutes slower than the fastest group. What I hate more than slow play is playing with someone whinging about pace of play for 18 holes.

thewobbler

There’s an early morning group at my course who would drive anyone mad.

Oddly they aren’t slow in addressing the ball or reading putts. Nor or they poor golfers. It’s just that the 4 of them will walk in unison around the course; watch each other’s shots from behind, then amble over to the next one, and repeat.

They are from oblivious to being slow either, for there’s a sizeable group of members have by this stage tried to shoo them along. Instead they’re adamant that they’re playing a decent pace and everyone else should chill out.

just strange behaviour. Kind of thing I’d associate with cyclists riding 3 abreast.

Ollieboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120116837#Comment_120116837

Totally agree with this.

4 balls should be 10 mins apart.

on busy or normal comps tees more forward, pins in middle of green, mowing lines playing towards line of play.

fairways should be wider in most clubs. Rough playable.

we did try starter and it helped but if you need to tell people to hurry up, what’s the point!

when you go on hols most people like the courses they play and score well! People always remember a course if they score well and not how difficult the pins or speed of greens.

ShivasIrons

There's more than one reason for slow play so more than one solution is required, clubs aren't very good at seeing this so hence the issues are never addressed.

Reasons for slow play

Number of golfers playing
Player Behaviour (the one that is only focused upon)
Course Set up
Speed of greens
course design

Solutions

Understanding the flow of golfers and the requirement to have the correct gapping for starting tee times. This is by far the biggest cause of slow play, having too many people on the golf course and the way to control it is to have minimum gaps. So starting times of at least 8 minutes per 2 ball, 10 per 3 ball and 12 per 4 ball. If this isn't followed then you have no space for golfers to move into and it clogs up the course. Play will be ok at the start of the day and then slows down to a grinding halt as the day goes on and later in the day frees up again when the space reappears. Clubs just think we need to get as many as possible off the first tee as quickly as possible and this will be lead to grindingly slow rounds.
Player behaviour - this is the one every only looks at and the usual suspects, 15 practice swings, leaving the bag in the wrong place, marking the card on the green, slow walking etc - the solution is to educate golfers when they come into the game and if not then later, however the big problem is that when you tell a fast player they are behind they speed up, when you tell a slow golfer they are behind they argue with you as to why it's not their fault. Having a time par for the course will help, it's also not the same for every course. Also, act on the slow players, sanction them and don't be afraid to do it. Again, clubs shy away from this.
Long rough, rough in blind spots, difficult pin positions etc all slow down play. The course also has control of this so cut down the rough, don't have too many difficult pins on busy days or windy days etc
Very fast greens means lots of three putts and slower rounds. Keep green speeds reasonable
Course design - blind shots, flow of holes eg difficult long par 3 after short par 4 early in the round, blind hazards, long walks between greens and tees. The hardest to change as it needs to be done by the designer when building the course.

The reasons for slow play and the solutions are known, however we don't see solutions been implemented rather than a few cursory reminders of play ready golf and stay up with the group in front.

The slow play conundrum can be solved if all the reasons are recognised and all solutions are implemented, not just the odd one.

willabur

one interesting suggestion I saw (might have been on boards) is to have a local rule saying you can place in bunkers. Takes the need to rake the bunker away. you can smooth out damage with your foot

willabur

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120116529#Comment_120116529

it increases your heart rate - so it is a legitimate work out

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058279832/slow-play-at-your-home-club

Yesterday we lads behind us ask to play through. Said they were cold hanging around waiting on it. It was ridiculous. They waited on one hole while the guys ahead had crept a shot a head of us. This was on the 6th hole. By the time we got to the 9th we were a full hole ahead of the guys behind, the lads that had the whinge!! By the 11th hole we were right up behind the lads in front of us.

Thats golf, its inevitable, esp in a tight course that you will need to look for a ball every couple of holes. If you follow by the rules which we did, thats 3 mins you lose. But it'll evn itself up over 18 most of the time. I think some people are just pent up ready to have a whinge at any kind of a delay

Caddy cart

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120116082#Comment_120116082

I agree with you to a certain extent but come on, a lot of golfers after 18 holes think they are tired and had some sort of a work out. As for calories, if u sit on your hole for 4 hours, u burn 600 or so calories so golf is not exactly proper exercise

El Guapo!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120115842#Comment_120115842

Not really sure what that has to do with slow play tbh. It's not as if slow play is caused by hordes of unfit people on courses leaning against trees and wheezing.

Anyway, while golf may not be a high intensity, sweat pumping exercise... studies show walking while playing 18 holes generally burns in the region of 1500 calories. Again, I'm not saying that golf will get you in the best shape of your life but it's certainly a start, and playing once or twice a week is still a lot more than a lot of people do on a weekly basis.

Caddy cart

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120114525#Comment_120114525

So true. And some people are so unfit nowadays. They think golf is real exercise. It’s a slow walk at the best of times.

coillcam

I always try to book early in the morning either directly before or after the "sprinters". A regular group of older gents who want a 3.5 hr max round. If you're ahead then just let them play through and if you're behind you have a clean run. They approach the ball with a club in hand each time, address it for 1s, then bang and immediately on to the next shot. A few known offenders for slow play that never seem to be dealt with but it's generally not too bad tbh. A typical round is 4 hours even in a comp, 4:15 or worse means you're held up or it's a medal comp.

Hijpo

It's difficult to know what you class as slow.

There's someone absolutely taking the pi55 by never being ready to hit and there's someone playing off a high handicap who's trying to get things right and feel comfortable.

Russman

I think lots of clubs more or less shrug their shoulders at it. Problem is one man's "slow" is another man's "running around". There just isn't the appetite to do anything about it really. Couple that with nowadays everyone thinking they're somehow special or entitled, and you'd be wasting your time (pardon the pun). Unfortunately the PGA Tour mantra of ".....I'm playing for a million dollars, I'll take as long as I like...." has sort of become "I paid my membership, I'll take as long as I like" at club level.

finglashoop

Elmgreen just ignore it like everything else. Token emails / signs wont cut it.

Ive let my memebership lapse as of today. I am fairly restricted timewise and its closest to me but i will probably have to rejoin anyway.

Course has got noticably worse last two years and those running it dont give a shiny **** about members. Thats pretty clear. Unfortunately not much the mens committee can do with carr golf In charge