I can see a difference of course but my point still stands economically both FG and FF are right to centre right. They were cheerleaders for austerity. They are the ones responsible for investing in public services. The housing situation has a hell of a lot to do with FF pretty much abolishing county councils abilities to build housing in the early 2000s. The real problems in this country are chronic underinvestment in public services from right wing economic policy over many decades.
They are more centrists or at least they were.
Yes privatisation did become a thing in Ireland especially from the 90s onwards.
We had Eircom, Sucra Eireann and the sell off of corporation housing.
Part of that was copied from our nearest neighbours who sold everything and anything in the 80s.
I think selling off housing stock proved a vote winner because suddenly you were allowing people own their own homes.
As for healthcare a lot of that has to do with the state carrying on it's age old habit of not investing in public services.
The state has always saved money and effort by getting others to do what it should be doing.
Now granted for large portions of our state history we didn't have two coppers to rub together to spend anyway.
We as a state abdicated responsibility for education and indeed health to religious institutions for decades.
We copied UK in abdicating responsibility for the housing of lower income and welfare dependent people on the private sector.
Yes some connected ones have benefited through all of this, but that is not some right wing conspiracy, I would say it is the Irish sleeveen nod and a wink culture.
But that still doesn't mean we should have an almost open borders immigration system where we invite in people that immediately go on state supports.
It is bad for the existing taxpayers, service users and indeed greater good of a somewhat cohesive society.
Seriously if you can't see the difference between British conservative party and FG/FF I really don't know what to say.
Wrong forum. Try conspiracy theories.
Perhaps he means Corbyn was more of a traditionalist Left wing idealist than say Tony Blair- Corbyn being an old school socialist and pro-Trade union and anti-EU.
There seems to be multiple different definitions of what constitutes Right Wing evident by the fact that so many posters thanked the post where it was said that you cant be right wing if you are not anti-illegal immigration. Calling a party right wing is not a pejorative or being negative about the party- I just think it refers to being pro-private enterprise, pro- privatization, pro limiting the size of social welfare. You dont have to be similar to Orban to be called Right Wing and right wing is totally different to Far Right.
The Tories make socialist Jeremy Corbyn look Conservative at times?
That has to be one of the most ridiculous statements I have read on this website, and there have been plenty of front-runners over the years.
EDIT: Actually, no. That prize goes to the poster who said they knew dozens of people emigrating and every one of them said it was because of Eamon Ryan. Nothing will top that level of bullsh*t.
The Tories are barely Right wing anymore. They make Corbyn look Conservative at times.
We've had economic crashes one after another since 2008 caused by them. Even Economically they're not Right Wing. Centre or otherwise.
All of this stuff isnt about migrants or refugees at all - its that centre right governments have cut back public services hugely and allowed housing to become a disgustingly over privatised market.
Cutting on public services now is about controlling and impoverishing the society.
Modern corrupt governments goal is to reduce every western nation to third world level. This is obviously a two-pronged strategy of bring third-world people over in droves, and lower the standards so that natives at the middle and bottom economically suffer the most and their kids, etc. The effect then is that with resources limited, natives and 'new to the parish' then turn on each other.
That's how it works. That's how they control - keeping a boot on the lower/middle class, creating crisis after crisis, as we are seeing now.
Oh and this stage not one mainstream party is for proper immigration control which would mean not one is remotely right wing.
They’re not in favour of immigration control which YOU think is proper, doesn’t mean they’re not remotely right-wing, and certainly doesn’t mean you’re right-wing either. If all you’ve got is a position on immigration, then you’re missing the whole point of a party being centre-right - they’re not solely concerned with immigration in accordance with your ideals. Your position with regard to immigration would easier be described simply as populist… it’s not required to be popular, you’re just hoping to gain popular support, like SF have been doing for decades.
It’s only recently that FG have been stealing SF thunder at every opportunity in order to maintain power, and keep SF out of power. It just isn’t possible to characterise a country based on the results of referenda, which are only ever invoked to change something in the Constitution. Constitutional change wouldn’t be necessary to reform our immigration laws, that can be done by Government through legislation. Like the proposed bill which isn’t going to make Labour any more popular than they weren’t before, but it’ll help FG maintain power -
https://labour.ie/news/2022/01/31/government-must-build-on-generosity-of-regularisation-scheme-to-implement-born-here-belong-here-bill/
SF are still only hoping to capitalise on the protest vote by nitpicking at Government, and the one thing they can’t attack Government on is immigration policy, so they go for Housing and Healthcare instead, issues they know from polls that people actually care about a hell of a lot more than immigration -
https://www.rte.ie/news/election-2020/2020/0209/1114111-election-exit-poll/
Being either right-wing or conservative doesn’t mean being spiteful or trying to deprive anyone of their freedoms or their rights. That’s the mistake that parties which portray themselves as right-wing keep making, which is why they poll as dismally as they do at every election. That includes btw a character politician like Peter Casey, couldn’t even get elected at local level, because in spite of how he did in the Presidential election race (no prizes for second place), nobody wants him at local level -
In April 2019 he announced he had handed in his nomination papers to contest the 2019 European Parliament election in the Midlands–North-West constituency. In May 2019 while making a speech in Dunboyne, County Meath during the campaign, Casey was filmed declaring "The face of Ireland is changing. People say 'you’re racist'. Of course I'm racist, I'm a very proud Irish man". When questioned about this statement on The Floating Voter Podcast, a series run by the Irish Independent he said that he makes “no apologies” for describing himself as a racist and continued to criticise the EU’s policies on migration. He failed to win a seat, finishing fifth in a four-seat constituency.
He contested the 2020 general election as an independent candidate for the Donegal constituency, and also contested Dublin West, the constituency of incumbent Taoiseach Leo Varadkar. He received 213 first preference votes in Dublin West and was eliminated on the second count. In Donegal, he received 1,142 first preference votes and did not win a seat.
So what makes the UK conservatives right wing and fg/ff not right wing? Apart from the illegal immigration issue which for many years the Tories did nothing about but were still conisdered right wing.
Economically both FG and FF are right/centre right.
No other country in Europe has such privatised systems of housing or healthcare. FG/FF during the economic crisis wete cherlerleaders for hollowing out public services during the austerity years. There were 23000 public hospital beds in 2000. Its now 14000. All of this stuff isnt about migrants or refugees at all - its that centre right governments have cut back public services hugely and allowed housing to become a disgustingly over privatised market.
It's a "reds/Far Right under the bed" boogyman among too many of the so called "progressives" and "Left" people. Ireland is extremely centrist and significantly more Left of centre, especially since the 1990's. You could fit the actual Right winger politicians into a small pub function room. And they'd disagree with each other. Their voting base would just about fill a double decker bus.
Whatever about other European nations, where they parrot this boogyman from in the first place, the Right in this country barely exists, but some, including those in the media and government keep peddling, even "gaslighting" this utter bloody nonsense. Mostly to deflect and so they can avoid having to actually discuss things they know bear discussion and for which their answers don't hold much water.
The joke is if they actually wanted to help create an actual Irish Right wing, they're going the right way about it. Again these eejits don't learn from the past and others. It was largely by ignoring genuine concerns over migration and big changes in demographics, particularly in working class urban areas, in many European nations running this socio-political multicultural policy that drove the rise of the Right from fringe to more populist.
Now whatever about ex imperial nations having their chickens come home to roost that's not Ireland and we never got a direct vote on this extra EU migration and "multiculturalism"(the couple of 100,000 White EU/Europeans are invisible to both the Left and Right and we did vote for that). The one time we did approach such a vote 80% of the Irish electorate voted nope, in the face of shouts of "racism!!" by various NGO's and the usual loud voices. FF, FG, SF et al wouldn't dare to put such a direct vote to us again. They know the answer wouldn't suit their narrative, so they just keep shouting "racism!!" and "Far Right!!".
Jaysus can we fooking stop with this cr** that we have right wing parties anywhere near power in this country.
FG did partially grow out of a right wing/fascist organisation in the 1930s, but that was a short lived portion of history in this state.
The party that campaigned for contraception, abortion, divorce in the 1980s, same sex marriage recently and has in no way tried to remove social welfare state is right wing?
Give us a break.
FF has always been populist and at one stage would have been socially to the right of FG, but there is no way they have ever been right wing.
No party in Ireland, bar maybe a bit of the PDs would ever be as conservatives as the UK conservative party.
I dont think it is possible to say how older people voted Yes in the last abortion or SSM as polling can be inaccurate but many older generations did vote No in previous referendums or delay these referendums taking place which must be acknowledged. The older generation could have changed their minds in the last few year but it is most likely the younger generations who were the deciding factor in pushing thorough the Yes vote.
Conservatism is definitely the preserve of the old and rich in the UK and they are a few years ahead of us in terms of their policies- the Tories evened supported gay and abortion rights a good few years before our right wing /centre right wing parties supported those positions.
I knew they were detained in Irish prisons because there was nowhere else to put them, but that figure seemed awfully low for immigration offences (they shouldn’t be in prison because immigration offences are not criminal offences), but having read the article, there’s an explanation for the figure being as low as it is -
The number of people committed to prison for immigration issues increased in the years leading up to 2019, rising from 335 detentions in 2015 to 477 in 2019. Figures dropped by nearly 50 per cent to 245 committals in 2020 when many travel routes were closed for significant periods due to the Covid-19 pandemic.
There are currently no dedicated immigration-detention facilities in Ireland, with most men sent to Cloverhill Prison in west Dublin and women going to the Dóchas Centre on the Mountjoy campus in the city centre.
…
“A prison is by definition not a suitable place in which to detain someone who is neither suspected nor convicted of a criminal offence,” said the CPT.
The Department of Justice on Sunday said that detaining a person refused entry was “only undertaken as a last resort” and that the State is obligated to return a person to their country of origin “as soon as is practicable”.
It said non-custodial measures, such as a requirement to report to a Garda station or a requirement to reside in a specified place, were widely used as alternatives to detention.
The numbers of foreign nationals in prison aren’t inordinately high either. How many should anyone realistically expect? That article is from 2004 btw, more up-to-date figures at least here -
https://ec.europa.eu/migrant-integration/library-document/ireland-rights-needs-and-experiences-foreign-nationals-and-minority-ethnic-groups_en
(bold emphasis my own)
Over 80 foreign nationals detained in Irish prisons for immigration offences alone last year..plus an inordinately high number in prison for other offences…
That little group in the university bar were once Mary Robinson, David Norris and Mary McAleese…
20 years later? Not bad 🤔
It's like a conversation the guy fixing the air-con unit in the university bar would overhear from the little group in the corner, as they sit with their 1 pint and 4 straws chatting excitedly about the liberal utopia they will be part of, oblivious to what their country will actually look like in 20 years time
A gay person from most of those countries can claim asylum can’t they ?
How do you expect me to show proof when you know the migration to the new site essentially nuked any polls that were conducted on VBulletin?
You knew I wouldn't be able to, so you asked for it. Bad faith acting 101 there.
It’s not an indisputable fact, sure amn’t I hear disputing your claim, made on the basis of trying to suggest that foreigners don’t come to Ireland to work. It certainly makes a change from the usual accusation thrown at foreigners that they’re taking all the jobs, women, and now the houses 😂
This is however, a discussion about multiculturalism, and not just immigration or foreigners, and on that basis you really don’t have much of a point about any groups work ethic, particularly given nearly half a million people among the adult population aren’t even on the Live Register.
Yeah don't buy what he said there either, Boards was fairly reflective of the abortion and SSM ref as far as I recall. The SSM ref passed at 62% which wasn't as high as expected.
You made numerous points , none of which had anything to do with the indisputable fact that foreign born are overrepresented on the live register!
You’re going to ignore the point I made earlier then?
You’re leaving out the part of the article where it says:
"There were 21,783 people benefitting from the EU's Temporary Protection Directive included in the Live Register figures for December 2022, an increase of 2,283 from November 2022," he said.
But as for the number of foreigners in employment in Ireland, it’s about 95% according to data from the CSO, Department of Trade, Enterprise and Employment, and the European Migration Network -
The survey data shows that for April-June 2022, non-Irish citizens accounted for just under half a million (495,100) persons currently classified as ‘in the labour force’. This represents approximately 18.5% of the total labour force in Ireland during that period. Of these, nearly 95% were in employment, with the remainder unemployed. (This is similar to the percentage of Irish citizens in employment versus unemployed.) This is an increase of about 72,000 non-Irish citizens in employment from April-June 2021, with about 10,000 fewer unemployed.
https://emn.ie/migrants-in-the-labour-force-in-2022/
The recent increase in the representative amount of foreign born people on the Live Register is due to the increase in the number of foreign born people registering as available for work. However, previously it was always around the 18% mark, which corresponds to the number of foreign born people in the population.
Your attempt was basically to suggest that foreigners are coming here to take advantage of welfare benefits and all the rest of it, but it’s simply not true, as 95% of foreign born people are in employment, similar to the figures for Irish people among the population.
The reason I gave the figures for the number of people who are not available for work is to demonstrate that you were presenting a misleading picture based upon manipulating statistics to suit your purposes, ie - your claim that anyone said foreigners were coming over to do the jobs Irish people wouldn’t do, and that the housing costs must be enormous on the taxpayer. You neglected to mention that 95% of those people who are foreign born, are also taxpayers.
Would you mind showing that prove about boards is nowhere near reflective of the real world ?
BTW some would argue it is not in the way you assume, but the opposite in fact.
That is a wonderful load of absolute bollocks you've written there.
It's been proven time and time again that the majority opinion on boards is nowhere near reflective of the real world. Boards is completely over-representative of ultra-conservative values compared to the real world.
You talk about 'some of us' voting for abortion and divorce before some here were even born. Great. That doesn't mean there is no higher proportion of no voters compared to the voting population.
I remember the polling at the time. It was much closer to 50-50 to repeal the 8th amendment. Threads in After Hours were full of red-herring rhetoric about 'sure they'll teach our children to be gay if we vote this in' during the SSM referendum. Don't forget Peter Casey would be sitting in the Aras if it were up to boards users because 'something something travellers'. In practice, both referendums were overwhelmingly passed and Peter Casey got his arse wallopped.
The boards majority view represents a vocal minority in the real world. That's the crux of it.
There is always an issue that 'has to give' but every time coming up to the election it boils down to three things - health, housing and pensions.
29.5% of those on the live register are foreign born. Unless 29.5% of Ireland's population is foreign born they are overrepresented. Last I heard 17% of the population is foreign born. So they are overrepresented on the live register.
Dunno what women working from home has to do with it, but thanks for throwing it in anyway jack!
I am, because they’re not. Even from the figures you cited, they’re not. If 20% of the population is foreign, and less than 20% are on the Live Register, then they are under-represented on the Live Register.
In the same way, if the other 80% of the population are Irish, and 70% of people on the Live Register are Irish, the Irish are underrepresented on the Live Register.
It doesn’t speak well for Paddys work ethic that being born and raised in Ireland, they still represent the vast majority of people on the Live Register, which is basically a tally of the number of people in the population who are available for work.
It doesn’t take account of people who are not available for work, who are not on the Live Register, and therefore they don’t qualify for unemployment benefits or assistance. People for example like the nearly half a million women who are working in the home -
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-wamii/womenandmeninireland2016/socialcohesionandlifestyles/
445,000 women, and about 9,000 men, according to the 2016 census.
Why oh why do you and others continue to think you were the only ones to vote for abortion, same sex marriage.
Sunshine some of us were voting for abortion and divorce before you were probably born or maybe you were in nappies.
It aint just younger generation that got the right to claim they were the ones that pushed over those referendums.
Maybe when you have been round the block long enough like some of us you might have a slightly different slant on things.
A lot of people in other countries thought some ideas were dying off, that the great progressive and liberal agendas would never see an end but hey ho the people spoke and said enough is enough.
Look around dude and notice how even once lauded socially progressive and socialists states have done about turns on certain issues e.g Sweden, Denmark.
Conservatism is not just the preserve of the old and thinking otherwise is rather myopic.
BTW I always find it ironic that the progressives are actually great fans of rather regressive ideologies and indeed the age old idea of censuring opposition.
Most of them would be retired I would have thought.
Who knows maybe sharing a hotel with somalis, Pakistanis, syrians etc could appeal to some yanks. The ones it doesn't appeal to can sod off to Scotland instead!
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