The DUP refusing to let Sinn Fein have First Minister means a December Assembly Election. Will the numbers change in a fresh Election?
What parties seats are vulnerable or who might make gains in any constituencies ??
Maybe using the mirror above you might be able to reflect on the orgy of triumphalism and hate every year organised by your community. All the statuery and commemoration of the British Empire and army that proliferates around towns and cities, the obsession with the fleg etc.
'Pain and hurt' is not exclusive to Unionist victims. Though to listen to some you would be forgiven for thinkng there was only one protagonist in the history of what happened on this island.
That was the context of what Tiernan said about the singing of a song being 'harmless' in comparison.
You support TUV policy and vote DUP, and you regard yourself as a moderate?
Also which TUV policies in particular do you support or is it all of them?
Very very few of them. Only the protocol. I can’t think of another policy that I agree with them on.
like everything in life. I am moderate on all but those things I feel very strongly about. I suppose you are moderate on everything?
The moderate view expressed by the UUP and backed by the courts of YOUR country is the Protocol is not a threat to the Union.
But we all make choices like that Francie when we go to vote. We weigh things up and vote accordingly. In an ideal world, we'd all decide how to vote on matters of principle only. But it's a muddy old place and sometimes you lend your vote one way or another to prevent something worse.
Mod Note
Personal abuse and name calling aren't acceptable. Civil discussion please.
You lend your 'support'.
A 'vote' = support.
Exactly. I could be a Liverpool supporter, but would like Arsenal to beat City because I don't want City to win the league. Doesn't make me an Arsenal supporter. It's not as complicated as some twist it to be.
This isn't football. It's politics and the politics of a part of the world where sectarianism and factional ideologies have distinct and antagonistic flavours. Where those belligerents continue to enjoy support for this kind of logic.
Voting for one of the two more ideologically extreme strands of unionism is a de-facto rubber-stamp of their existence and ideology. It can be skirted around but ultimately, the DUP exists by dint of popular support; it won't care if some unionists held their nose for "reasons". Same was seen with Brexit and the buyer's remorse from those who just voted Leave to give the Tories a snub. To actually use your own analogy: it's the result that counts here.
The same applies too for nationalism, but the extreme strands therein have been quietly and effectively whitewashed away; something the DUP have been curiously incapable of doing.
So, let's flesh out the analogy.
The UUP (whom downcow says he supports) is diametrically at odds with the DUP on the protocol. The UUP hold the moderate view of it.
What downcow is proposing is to take away his support for Liverpool and to give it to City. He wants the UUP to be beaten on the issue.
'Arsenal' don't come into it.
"The same applies too for nationalism, but the extreme strands therein have been quietly and effectively whitewashed away; something the DUP have been curiously incapable of doing."
Hidden a bit, papered over. Every now & then it slips out as in Up The Ra Cullinane or supportive comments in Ardfheis speeches etc.
Much the same in DUP. You have to accept that their current tactics are logical to them and their political manoeuvring.
As it is with any Party whose legacy and older members come from extreme fringes of ideology. No doubt at the back of meetings there are individuals whom are not spoken of, not mentioned in the minutes while everyone pretends aren't there. I don't condone that tactic, but it's fairly transparent all the same that some parties are so desperate to whitewash their sordid history.
In any case, for better or worse the end result has been very effective and at least shows a desire to evolve one's position and image. Let's not forget the DUP was briefly led by Edwin Poots only recently in all his retrograde glory. While in general the party's braintrust is a who's who of Yesterday's Men. Again, a curious inability to attract newer perspectives or blood (though possibly not that curious, when their socially conservative ideology will always chaff against younger Northern Irish coming along. Again, see Edwin Poots).
So voting for the DUP is enabling their continued existence and relevance in NI Politics. One has to own the consequence of that vote, and what it means in terms of the North's ideological trajectory.
Except voting for someone to fill a seat for a 5 year term is not the same as wanting Arsenal to beat City on a Saturday afternoon. The analogy doesn't work and nobody is making it out to be complicated as you claim. If you vote for somebody you are directly supporting their views, opinions and goals whether you like it or not as they will use your vote along with many others to push those views, opinions and goals once elected.
Saying you voted for someone but disagree with the majority of what they stand for is cognitive dissonance at its finest, people should own their voting decisions for better or worse trying to pretend your not all in with the DUP when you have consistently voted for them time and again like downcow is admitting to is akin to childish finger pointing by trying to lay the blame of what you've done at someone elses feet.
"If you vote for somebody you are directly supporting their views, opinions and goals whether you like it or not as they will use your vote along with many others to push those views, opinions and goals once elected."
This is par for the course though. I voted No1 for the Labour Party candidate last election - I approve of some Labour policy but not every policy they promote. You can't possibly avoid accidentally endorsing some policies that you don't care for. Otherwise you'd never vote at all. And many don't vote I guess on that basis, that 'they're all at it' etc etc
And I voted for FG and while I dont agree with all their policies or actions I understand that by voting for them I have directly supported all their actions while they are in government. You can say you disagree with what they have done but trying to absolve yourself of responsibility like downcow is trying to do by saying they literally don't support them yet continually vote for them is pathetic.
But you wouldn't be claiming 'I don't support the Labour Party I support The Greens or Fine Gael'. 🙄
I voted for SF last time out = I support SF until I vote again.
Now that’s an unbelievable post. Extreme republicanism topped the poll. The party whose northern leader said recently that they was no alternative to the sectarian conflict (you know the detail, I don’t need to lay it out) the party that continues to have connections with terrorists around the world. The party where my local MP has categorically refused to condemn the murder of a civilian Protestant constituent. I could go on but you are displaying exactly what the guy interviewing keilty displayed. It’s either extremely naive or extremely nasty.
Take a week look at what the sf leaders say and do re sectarian murderous history
Do you honestly believe that all sf voters believe there was no alternative to murdering men, women, children and babies? Seems to be what you are saying. If true, there will never be peace on this island
……And as posted above, do we therefore assume that you believe there was no alternative to murdering my neighbours and friends?
SF have not advocated a military/armed response for 25 years and so that is irrelevant to anyone voting for them now. You however wish to support the DUP and TUV and their current/future policy.
I believed that some people saw no alternative long before MoN said it and long before I gave SF a vote. The inevitability that partition would go up in flames was forseen by more than I.
You seem to have completely misunderstood what the word "whitewash" means in regards to my point. Or mistaken me with Francie. Your race to be affronted blinds you to good faith debate
The original backstop would have come in and you'd have full alignment with GB.
The DUP prevented that, solely and entirely. The protocol is their fault, but you are intending to reward them with a vote!
That's a very B&W view of your vote and politics? Binary view even as in nationalist or unionist?
I vote Labour No1 in last election doesn't mean that I support all their ideas and doesn't preclude me from approving (supporting)of some of the policies of FF, FG, Greens, SD or indeed SF. The latter have many good ideas which I'd happily support but imho come with some undesirable priorities. You look at all in the round and make your choice in our PR system - vote No1/2/3 as you like and no votes for candidates you dislike.
Labour will not take into account your views when elected. You support them with a vote = you support everything they do. You might complain about some of their policy, but you enable them. This isn't rocket science.
In that case Francie a voter could never vote for anyone, not even an independent. As sooner or later they'll do or say something you don't agree with. So you'd be better off not voting at all and just use some other tactics/ methods to implement ideas.. isn't that the basis for paramilitary thinking?
No.
For instance, I don't agree with all SF policy but I decide to give them my support because I don't think that policy will do as much harm as X party's policy. I don't pretend to myself for a second I am not enabling all of their policy. That would be exceptionalism at it's finest and most absurd.
I support SF by giving them my vote. No if's or but's. If SF don't deliver as FF and FG etc didn't deliver previously for me then I will take away my support/vote for them.
Thats nonsense B&w fantasy
No party would get that total support from me. I will give my vote where I believe it will have greatest impact in the most important areas. Indeed I often vote for an individual who happens to belong to a party.
I have also voted SDLP in Westminster election to try to keep out a sectarian party which defends murder. I agree with little of what the SDLP stand for and am certainly not a supporter. it is simply the lesser of two evils
It is not ‘total’ ir is however support for that party and it’s manifesto.
You can argue it all you want but voting for an individual or member of a party is giving them your support for everything they do while in office. You can disagree with what they do or say but by voting for them you have given them your support to do it until the next election comes and you vote for someone else.
If you want to be grown up and honest with us just admit you looked at the DUP and made a calculation that you were happy for them to potentially follow through on the stuff you disagree with as long as they definitely follow through on the stuff you agree with.
