I think some people need to actually look at the weights of top opensides before proclaiming anyone is too small. Cane, Kolisi are around 105 kilos, and I think Hooper is only around 102.
Opensides tend to be significantly lighter than 8s. Talk of someone who's around 105 kg and who primarily plays openside being "too light for a top level backrower" doesn't really have much grounding in reality.
Had a look at the offensive stats of Irish qualified back rows on Rugby Pass for this year. Rugby Pass take a much harsher approach to metres made than the Pro Rugby site but they at least compile ERC stats too.
The top 5 Irish qualified back row ball carriers who have carried over 20 times this season are JVF, Hodnett, Deegan, POM and Doris in that order. Coombes is a very close 6th to Doris. Both Deegan and Coombes have carried far more than the other 4 and their stats suffer from being brought back to the mean as a result. Jack O'Sullivan also has surprisingly brilliant stats on his 18 carries as well (2.8 metres per carry and 4 defenders beaten) and would have made the top 5 if he had carried twice more. VDF is ridiculously far out front with 5 metres per carry, 8 defenders beaten, 3 clean breaks and 4 tries!! Hodnett is also way out from of the rest of the pack with 3.6 mpc, 4 defenders beaten and 2 clean breaks. POM, Deegan, Doris and Coombes are all close with between 2.1 and 2.5 mpc.
Looking back to last year you'd imagine both VDF and Hodnett will come back down to earth when their sample size increases, they had (still very elite) 2.3 and 2.7 mpc last year respectively. POM looks to be having a bit of a statistical anomoly of a year as he only had 1.4 mpc last year.
Statistically Hodnett is clearly an elite ball carrier, he is arguably the best Irish back row ball carrier over the last two seasons at provincial level. Its interesting that Munster still use him from the bench so there must be other areas of his game to improve on, as he looks to be far more of an impact player than JOD atm.
Kendellan is probably heavier but he's a good deal shorter than Connors, for whatever that matters (apart from Connors being a lineout option).
Completely agree. (The “didn’t get him very far” comment is a little silly tbh. He’s a guy with a huge ceiling).
21 years old with 30 senior caps including 8 champions cup ggamesis some going
If people are juding him off this one time they saw him their doing a disservice. He has plenty of areas to inprove and is smaller than youd like but munster have some serious back rows coming through and some think hes the best of them
With re size connors os smaller now id think and kendelland still has to grow into himself
Some of them are already there which is pretty nuts.
Yea, i dont care about whatever the listed measurements are. Timoney is bigger.
He captained the Ireland u-18s and u-20s and is making inroads into matchday squads at senior level for Munster and still only 21. I'm delighted with his progress, think he's a future captain for Munster after POM hangs up his boots - his career trajectory and leadership reminds me of POM coming through. It's a pity he was ruled out injured for the Emerging Ireland tour
He’s had some outstanding displays in the last 12 months. He was superb against Toulouse last season, for example.
He’s still only 21 and would be in year-3 academy but for Munster offering him a senior deal.
He’s a brilliant prospect.
Hodnett can be very explosive in the tight exchanges also tho.
But on a larger point, I don’t think Farrell picks specific role-sets for specific positions. It’s more about what combinations across multiple positions deliver.
Crothers is extremely light, the others you've listed are big guys and could all carry 110 kgs plus easily.
Timoney is definitely bigger than Kendellan
I do think one point on Penny - he's somewhat hard done by by how much he achieved so young. He doesn't turn 24 for another 8 months, and yet has already nearly racked up 50 appearances for Leinster (scoring 25 tries).
To put it in context, Peter O'Mahony and Josh van der Flier made their international debuts at 23, Will Connors was 24 and Nick Timoney was 26.
I don't think it'll happen for Penny in this RWC cycle, but I do think he'll make his Irish debut in the next 12-18 months.
From a Leinster PoV I'm very interested to see if/when Culhane makes a breakthrough and plays senior rugby. He's already 20 so not especially young to be getting gametime.
I’ve noticed recently that its been very hard to get into the irish back row and be undersized at under 20s. McNabney, Quinn, Culhane, Mangan, Crothers all seem like big dudes.
It could be someone younger and bigger grabs a spot in the next couple of years.
Yeah I remember him playing Connacht and Conor Oliver had a go at him, he really went inside himself and looked a bit scared after.
I think he went the opposite extreme then and tried to be a bit of a hard man. It cost him against Ulster? I think with the quick penalty.
Luckily this year he seems to be just focusing on rugby which he needs to do. He's still very young and will learn from all these experiences
Agree re: Penny. He's doing it at league level. I suppose if he had the right players around him, he could do well at the international level. Is his size a factor?
Regarding Hodnett and Kendellan, they both carry well and are skilled. Hodnett reminds me of VDF a few years back.
In the next cycle, there could be bolters involved. There's so many good young lads coming through.
I haven't seen that much of Kendellan but he played against Leinster last season (or earlier this season) and my main recollection was he kept trying to start scraps. Didn't get him very far.
I don’t really see all the hype behind Kendellan, good player but I have always thought Hodnett has the ability to be special. Injury has slowed his progress though. After this year I’d be expecting to see him in Irish squads if he can get a good injury free run.
timony is certainly the outlier there. kendellan is as big as him at the moment.
I don't think Hodnett or Kendellan really fit the athletic profile Farrell looks for in his 7s. You look at the guys he's used there. Connors, O'Mahony, Timoney, all big lads. VDF would be an outlier, but he had fallen behind Connors and POM in late 2020/early 2021 and we saw how much he needed to become far more explosive in the tight exchanges to nail down a place.
Love Baird. The only player I think that can come close to Ferris for size, power and pace. However, he still has allot to prove as a backrow and a lock. I hope Leinster stick with him primarily at 6 for the next few years and Edogbo comes through as a lock at Munster.
For now I'd keep him on the bench for max impact.
From what I’ve seen this year, they have different roles. Kendellan carries more tight, and hodnett more wide. But, i see what you mean.
From what I have seen Hodnett is a far superiour athlete to Kendellan, much more powerful and great pace over 5-10 yards to break tackles. Quick look at the pro 14 stats back this up. Hodnett has 47 carries for 179 metres and 3 clean breaks, Kendellan has 65 carries for 133 metres and 1 clean break. I wish the ERC's stats page was as good as the URC's one!
There’s a thing in baseball where you dont fit the mold or you are too old for your level (not the case for Penny) or your stat profile doesnt seem sustainable where your performance isn’t really trusted and you have to prove it again and again up the levels, and those chances don’t come easily once you reach the majors.
Penny seems like the rugby equivalent of that. On the other hand, once you do prove it, he could play a long time for ireland. Really needs to be good right away though.
Agreed on Kendellan. That’s the worry. Although he is putting on weight i think or at least he looks heavier this year.
I’d go Baird, Doris, POM with Conan on the bench
Penny has performed at a pretty exceptional level in the league but he has made basically no inroads into the first 15/23 at Leinster and isn't really on the radar for the Ireland squad. He hasn't ever started a Euro game afaik and he mightn't have even played at all in Europe. I'm not really sure what's going to change for him in the next season or two or three because he's been doing it for Leinster at league level for some time now, and I don't see how he's in the conversation for Ireland at all at the moment. And just to be clear, I think he's class but there's obviously something the Leinster coaches think is keeping him from the next step. And it's not just the players ahead of him, he'd have involvement if they thought he was at that level.
If vdF gets injured tomorrow...POM, Dorris, Conan 20.Baird/Prendergast/Coombes?
I think Penny has the power and doggedness to play 6N. I suppose he's more of a groundhog than any of the above (&Connors). Kendellen looks promising but I'm not sure if he has that power. He's still young. Hodnett just turned 24. Good player, he hasn't caught my eye as someone to make that step up. Munster supporters would know more.
And Timoney is still the man those three have to supplant.
Both of them are great. The world cup will be a year early. They will both be capped afterwards, imo.
Leinster fan so don't see every Munster game but I'd rate Hodnett above Kendellan
![Photo of [Deleted User]](https://w8.vanillicon.com/v2/8ffce37c55cff55e500b78cb1d293bb2.svg)
![Photo of [Deleted User]](https://we.vanillicon.com/v2/e7ef1946e92d84157dc464ad6c3ddaab.svg)
![Photo of [Deleted User]](https://wd.vanillicon.com/v2/ddb508ca3281bbcc5001177dc26332a1.svg)
![Photo of [Deleted User]](https://wd.vanillicon.com/v2/dd23f423fe14831a2a84d9f17c825ecc.svg)
![Photo of [Deleted User]](https://w8.vanillicon.com/v2/8a022abb175d445f2b5b8a1c545f3d3f.svg)