Ukrainian citizens have been given temporary protection status under EU 2022/382, and in the case of Ireland, they can apply for asylum after 90 days here. They aren't encouraged to apply for asylum right away, but when the one year of temporary protection is up, they can apply for asylum.
They are of course an international country outside of the EU, who are seeking protection in the EU/Ireland. Is that not the very definition of International Protection?
Now answer my question.
Well I think it was a bit surprising that you were under the impression that most IP applicants would be Ukrainian women and children given they could be here under the Temporary Protection Directive and qualify for social welfare and ability to work and access to many things the same as a citizen could, rather than opting to enter direct provision and getting 20 quid a week. Is that because you would have chosen the 20 quid a week Direct Provision option yourself?
It would seem even more silly to me for someone to have somehow formed the opinion that most people were under the same misapprehension. To me, it would be evidence that that person didn't understand the very very basics of the situation.
So are you going to answer my question?
But that's beside the real issue here, and my overall point, do you really think that bringing in thousands of single males, 55 to 60% of overall claims according to Roderic O'Gorman, into this country is a good thing?
What IS your issue exactly? I mean, did you read the context in which Roderic was speaking when he referred to that statistic?
"We're facing the largest humanitarian challenge our country has ever witnessed.
"In terms of international protection applicants, I think you'd be talking maybe 55% to 60% would be single male applicants.
"That's not surprising in the context of people fleeing war.
"Men are victims of war, men are conscripted into armies, men are victimised in terms of torture, in terms of political persecution around the world.
"Men are as entitled as woman, or as indeed families, to seek international protection," he added.
https://www.newstalk.com/news/ending-direct-provision-by-2024-very-difficult-to-achieve-ogorman-1415771
It’s a good thing that we can offer protection to thousands of people who need it. I’m just not sure what your point is about 55% of those applicants being single males. There are thousands of single males in Ireland already, is it that we have too many single males and granting international protection to a couple of thousand more will play havoc with the sex ratio of the population? We have 33,000 more females than males already -
The Sex Ratio in Ireland in 2021 is 98.66 males per 100 females. There are 2.47 million males and 2.51 million females in Ireland. The percentage of female population is 50.34% compare to 49.66% male population. Ireland has 33.58 thousand more females than males. Ireland is at 99th position out of 201 countries/territories in terms of female to male ratio.
https://m.statisticstimes.com/demographics/country/ireland-demographics.php
And in 2019 at least, we had 86,000 people come to live in Ireland, 45,000 of whom were males, and it’s like you didn’t even notice -
The number of males emigrating from Ireland fell from 41,900 in 2009 to 28,100 in 2019 while the number of female emigrants fell from 30,100 to 26,800 over the same time period.
The number of male immigrants climbed from 36,800 in 2009 to 45,000 in 2019 while the number of female immigrants rose from 36,800 to 43,600 over the same time period.
In 2019 net migration had climbed to 33,700 people, with 88,600 people arriving to live in Ireland (immigrants) and 54,900 leaving the country to live abroad (emigrants).
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-wamii/womenandmeninireland2019/introduction/
The idea that 55% of people seeking international protection in Ireland are single males isn’t the least bit surprising or interesting, even if there were never a war going on. It’s hardly an ideal situation in the first place, but I don’t think it’s a bad idea that we’re able to offer protection to people who are seeking it.
Indeed. It's got little enough to do with the EU. The right blame the EU for all the ills as they hate the organisation, the left point to the same EU and claim it's our obligation as EU members. Both are talking through their arses. Our politcal class are the problem. Many EU nations have tightened up their controls on migrants, as usual we're a few steps behind. We could have looked at the busted flush that is "multiculturalism" before it kicked off and headed it off then, but no. Now to be fair our immigration authorities have one of the higher refusal rates in the EU. The problem is follow up. Deporting these chancers and so on. Instead what usually happens is some local vested interest and/or sap is seen as a soft touch, little campaigns to stay kick off, usually ending up with a photo op for one of our chinless wonders in the Dail and the migrant stays. Or they do a McEntee and waive years of illegality and hand out residency, reframing them as "undocumented" to shift the narratives.
Our own politicians like the ones across the water used to and still do around Brexit lay the blame for any unpopular decision at the door of the EU.
This was a big factor in Brexit and it’s stirring up a lot of anti EU sentiment here. Until we have politicians with courage to actually be seen to stand behind their decisions we are at nothing.
Don't bother arguing this as you will be drawn off on tangent, the exact thing a lot of the pro "throw out the welcome matt to everyone" wants.
You will get drawn into the definition of refugee versus asylum seeker versus the new term "those seeking international protection".
And then to twist the whole thing even more you will find all of the above ones will be thrown into the "immigrants" pile to mask just how much they are costing the Irish state i.e. the taxpayers.
We are a very soft touch and Ukraine just like Syria before is being used as a catch all and excuse.
Sorry to butt in but was that not a reasonable expectation given Ukranian men between and 18 and 60 were forbidden to leave the country. Or am I missing something?
No. Why would it be? Why would a Ukrainian man apply for IP when he is entitled to stay here under better conditions under the temporary protection directive.
It is an EU Directive. The last time I checked, Ukraine weren't even in the EU. Even if they were, Zelensky would have no authority to modify or constrain any EU laws or Directives himself.
So how did so many manage to leave when there was a ban in place?, and whats the difference between international protection and temporary protection?
You’re missing something. It’s basically that Ukranian nationals coming here didn’t have to apply for International Protection, they were able to come here under the EU Temporary Protection Directive -
Should I apply for international protection?
There is no requirement for Ukrainian nationals and others covered by the Temporary Protection Decision to seek international protection (also known as asylum) to receive the support and protection of the Irish State. The EU Temporary Protection Directive provides a quicker and more streamlined alternative in these circumstances.
While you can, of course, always choose to apply for international protection, you cannot benefit from temporary protection at the same time.
Temporary protection will provide you with immediate access to the labour market, along with access to social welfare income supports, accommodation and other State supports. If you choose to apply for international protection, you should be aware that you will not be able to access employment until 6 months after making your application.
https://help.unhcr.org/ireland/ukraine-situation/
So how did so many manage to leave when there was a ban in place?
I’m not sure if this is one of those “truth is stranger than fiction” type deals, but the way the website is written certainly seems a bit tongue-in-cheek 😁
One of the most popular schemes consists in banal escape from the country. In such cases, men are ready to do almost anything to avoid mobilization. Yesterday they shouted that they would exterminate the occupiers, and today they disguise themselves as women or give bribes to be released abroad.
https://visitukraine.today/blog/1109/running-away-from-ukraine-how-men-flee-from-war
Ah the you g men have been leaving war torn south Africa Nigeria and the Cameroon to seek refuge here for the last 20 years. Added to that now the midland towns have become like mini Slovakia. Every man and his pregnant wife have heard of the easy way of life. Nothing we can do about the 2nd group as they are in the Eu and no will to do anything about the first group from those that matter. It will be some place to live in the years to come.
The "Temporary Protection" is a special status that you can rougly understand as being the EU allowing Ukrainians to come and live in the EU and be entitled to the same things as EU citizens.
International Protection is what we call "Asylum seekers". Those are people from any country who land in another country and say "please let me stay here because I am persecuted or in danger back home (or who are already living in the other country and don't want to go home for the same reason).
Asylum seekers don't have access to SW or permission to work. Ukrainians do under temporary protection. It would make no sense for Ukrainians to apply for IP. They might try to do it if/when their Temporary protection status expires (or if they were individually not qualified under the TP Directive which would be technically possible but would be a minority)
If the second group cannot support themselves, we can deport them. EU or not. How do so many people not know EU laws/rules.
I know we technically can if they are not working after 6 months. However it is in no way happening. There are some differences between the Poles and Lithuanians that have made Ireland their home for living and working and this latest brigade.
Duly noted!
I think that until Ireland processes asylum applications quickly and deports failed claimants swiftly (within days), we’ll be a target destination. If we’re seen as a ‘soft touch’, we’ll have shortages of accommodation (Ukrainian situation excepted). The rejection rate shows too many applicants aren’t asylum seekers but are economic migrants trying to circumvent the system. If you want to move to Ireland and are lucky enough not to be genuine danger, there is a process to follow - gain skills, apply for a work permit. Anything else, especially fake claims for asylum and/or discarding of documentation, should be a major red flag and the perpetrator should be detained then sent packing. Unfortunately the opposite is happening under O'Gormans watch and we are now welcoming the dregs of the third world with open arms.
You’re having a laugh if you think anyone’s application for asylum is going to be processed within days, it can take anywhere from weeks to months to years by the time a decision is made, and then just as long if the decision is appealed, which they have every right to do under Irish and International Human Rights Law.
You don’t have any idea what the rejection rate is either, because of the time it takes to process applications which means overlapping years, so it’s impossible to pin down to any given year. Don’t take my word for it though. When asked the question for the years 2019 to 2021, this was the answer given -
https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2022-02-08a.1539
We always had, and always will have, shortages of accommodation, it’s how value is maintained in the property and rental markets, and migratory patterns don’t have any real effect on that because of the fact there’s nearly as many people leaving Ireland in any given year, as there is coming in.
Applying for a work permit certainly isn’t the only process for moving to Ireland. People move here with their families all the time, and they are economic migrants. Economic migrants aren’t generally eligible for asylum in the first place -
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_migrant
O’ Gorman has very little to do with anything, he’s not the Minister for Justice, who IS responsible for asylum applications. O’ Gorman is the Minister for Integration, ie - responsibility for migrants integration into Irish society. As for your ‘dregs of the third world’ comment, you must be living under a rock -
https://www.studyinternational.com/news/african-students-study-in-ireland/
Student visas btw, yet another process by which Africans can move to Ireland, study here, and gain employment here should they wish to, then they can bring over their families -
https://www.irishimmigration.ie/coming-to-join-family-in-ireland/joining-a-non-eea-non-swiss-national/
"You're having a laugh, "You're living under a rock"....then you come out with nonsense like this:
Be nice if you’d explain what you think is nonsense about it. We’ve always had people who couldn’t afford accommodation, couldn’t afford to buy property, people who emigrated, people who immigrated, etc -
In the 12 months to the end of April 2022:
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-pme/populationandmigrationestimatesapril2022/keyfindings/
200k pps numbers issued in 11 months last year to immigrants. 12 months to last April was still mid covid with restricted travel etc, floodgates running at full tilt now.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/176m-spent-on-providing-income-supports-to-around-65000-ukrainians-who-have-sought-refuge-in-ireland-42188911.html
"Mr McKeon warned against members of the public “making mischief and so on with numbers like this”
Incoming figures are at an insane level. Today's records will be tomorrow's standard
This is not sustainable nor is it beneficial.
Government are asking builders to work extra hours n hospital consultants to work weekends - be grand!
I think we can now see how this added immigration is having such a bad impact on our basic services people deserve.
Housing
Healthcare
What an absolute clusterfuck.
Don't mention the war for heavens sake, I mentioned it myself there a while ago but I think I got away with it
The article doesn’t say they were issued to immigrants. It says they were issued to non-nationals. They’re not quite the same thing. A PPS number can be applied for outside of Ireland, for a couple of different purposes, such as it’s required if buying property in Ireland. Anyways if you imagine the 200k is a large number, it’s not much different than in previous years.
2022 - 286,168 (Good year for Brazil, India, Romania and UK too)
2021 - 174,525
2020 - 132,001
2019 - 196,177
2018 - 194,537
2017 - 188,956
2016 - 181,025
2015 - 169,771
etc, etc…
Anyways you get the idea, they’re not necessarily issued to immigrants who have entered the country. You can have a gander at the annual breakdown here if you’re extremely bored, goes back 20 years -
https://www.gov.ie/en/collection/a78027-statistics-on-personal-public-service-pps-numbers-issued/#2022
Housing crisis in Canada now and interesting how they are dealing with it and where the finger pointing goes.
I appreciate its different here but just a case of where demand is far out weighing supply now
The only difference between Canada and here is that we haven’t done yet what Canada are doing now. Irish properties are an attractive investment for international investors -
Can I buy property in Ireland as a non-resident?
Yes, you can buy a property in Ireland as a non-resident. There are no restrictions on foreign nationals buying residential property or commercial property in the State. However, you will need to get a PPS number and instruct an Irish property solicitor (lawyer).
Can foreign nationals buy property in Ireland?
Foreign nationals are allowed to buy property in Ireland, even if they do not live within the State. This includes both residential property and commercial property. Irish real estate is a popular investment option, considering that Ireland had the fastest growing economy in the European Union in 2020.
..,
If you are a non-EEA citizen and have significant funds to invest in Irish real estate, you might want to consider the Immigrant Investor Programme (IIP). If you are accepted, you and your family will be given the right to reside in Ireland.
https://mullinstreacy.ie/buying-property-in-ireland-non-resident/
The IIP option is popular with Chinese investors who want to gain residency and long term residency can be used to support an application for Irish citizenship -
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/more-than-1500-chinese-millionaires-granted-irish-residency-through-golden-visa-scheme-42086015.html
Richard Barrett doesn’t do too badly for himself out of it -
https://migrant.ie/news/2021/1/10/chinese-invest-in-irish-social-housing-and-nursing-homes
It's hardly drawing someone off tangent @jmayo to point out if someone apparently don't understand the very basics of whatever they are ranting about.
Ranting will get you nowhere. You have to understand what the issue is before you try to "fix" it. It I wanted to "fix" it, I wouldn't want nutjobs who don't understand the basics coming in and shouting over me while I was trying to do it.
Ah yes lets go through the semantical challenge.
The issue is we are accepting too many people, not the right type of people, it is costing us a fortune that we will soon find out we don't have and it is creating huge future social issues.
The fix is to stop taking in asylum seekers (the vast vast majority of which are bogus), stop taking in any more refugees from anywhere right now.
First fix is move customs/immigration control plus armed military to aircraft doors and any passenger without documentation is handcuffed there and then to be detained until repatriation.
Anyone without VISA is detained.
An ultimatum is given to airline to repatriate them to wherever they boarded and passenger list is used to help identify them.
If airline does not repatriate them on next flight they are charged for their accommodation in an armed controlled locked down centre.
The next fix is to deport all the current asylum seekers/"those seeking international protection"/"those seeking temporary protection" in this country that have no identification.
You can dress up the issue all you want, but more and more people are finally copping on.
